F1/ Formula E/ Motorsport Thread

Do you genuinely believe that Red Bull have been penalised more harshly than Mercedes this season? If so, you are going out on your own with that opinion.

There is very little precedent for giving penalties for cars going slower than usual before they catch up with the safety car, even if it is against the rules. There was a precedent for giving a penalty for completely driving your rival off the road and giving them no space. That precedent was changed for Max, hence why all teams requested sitting in with the stewards to understand the new (changed for Max) rules.

Max brake-tested another driver, after just receiving a 5 second penalty, and just received a 10 second penalty which is an absolute joke. I think in any other situation, they'd have black flagged Max, and reprimanded Hamilton, leading to his third reprimand and a 10 place penalty in his final race.

 

I'm not as clear on the rules, and the appropriate punishments, as many on here but I am glad that the shenanigans in the last race didn't result in either driver being disadvantaged in the final race.

It may be selfish on my part, or seen as unjust by some, but I really want to see this settled on the track at the weekend with both drivers going into it with a chance to win the race and the title.

 

I am on my own in that opinion on this site, but the wider internet is not as biased. Do you genuinely believe Max's slow driving was as serious as Hamilton's irresponsible left-in nose at Copse, which took out his rival on a very high speed corner resulting in a 51G impact and knocked him out? Both got the same penalty. You can't do that and still win the race, that's clearly an insufficient penalty.

There is a precedent for penalising somebody for driving their opponent off the track, yes. But not when Lewis drove Perez into the pit lane entry in Turkey (even more dangerous as it was approaching the end of the pit wall), or when Hamilton pushed Verstappen wide on the first corner in Austin (even though it's the widest bit of tarmac on the calendar and a 747 could do a U-turn in that radius). And that's just two incidents I can call off without any research. Lack of consistency leads to these incidents - undoubtedly not punishing Max in Brazil encouraged him to try it again in Saudi.

Black flag? Really? Black flags in F1 are typically for blatant violations (switching cars, ignoring lights, overtaking on warm up laps etc) or refusing to action a penalty, not for a second penalty.

 

The stewards found both drivers at fault for copse

 

Silverstone verdict:
'When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.'

Saudi Arabia verdict:
'Reason The Stewards heard from the driver of Car 33 (Max Verstappen), the driver of car 44 (Lewis Hamilton) and team representative, reviewed the video and telemetry evidence and determined that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly at fault.'

The same phrasing for both. Yet you have interpretted it differently depending on your preference.

 

In Silverstone the stewards got it right

In Saudi Massi and the stewards got just about everything to do with the race hopelessly wrong

Understandable as F1 appoints different stewards for each race

 

And you don't see your own bias in that opinion?

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

 

I think the stewards were probably correct in both judgements, but not in both punishments.

As context, pre-Silverstone Verstappen had fairly recklessly thrown the car into the corner from further back than Hamilton and bullied Hamilton off the racing line, with Hamilton losing out two or three times. The only reason there weren't incidents was that Hamilton kept pulling out, even though the right of way was his, and lost points as a result.

At Silverstone, Hamilton and Verstappen were side to side, with Hamilton coming from behind and Verstappen being on the racing line. Max could have left Lewis more room when he turned in, given all the space was on the outside and knowing the speed he was going into the corner at (I'd say probably every other F1 driver would have done so). Lewis could have anticipated Max would not give him room, despite the speed he was travelling at, and braked more heavily. He did lift the throttle and turned in, so he wasn't trying to run Max off the road, but didn't account that being on the dirty side would give him significant understeer.

Given I think Lewis would have pulled out the move if Max hadn't already benefitted from equally aggressive moves, I think Lewis was slightly more at fault, although both drivers were in the wrong for not avoiding an incident. For the majority of F1s history, such moves were declared racing incidents. But given the speed of the corner and the consequence to Max, I can see why they gave Lewis a small penalty.

In Jeddah, Verstappen brake tested Hamilton (at over 2gs, from a pretty slow starting speed, which is significant), after the stewards ruled the former had gained an unfair advantage and needed to give the place back. That is completely uncalled for, dangerous and not at all in the spirit of F1. He wasn't trying to make a move stick when he was side-by-side. He had lost his head and was a danger to other cars on the track.

Hamilton shouldn't have driven Max off the road (he got a final warning) but Max did the same to him the previous week (with no intention of being able to make the corner), without serious punishment, which is way worse. Not sure if he even got a black and white flag for that?

 

No

The vast majority of people except Max, his dad, Christian smarmy Horner, Helmet Nutjob, Red Bull employees, Dutch fans, Red Bull fans, Sky TV (who are Red Bull fans), and Coulthard (who does work for Red Bull) think Max crossed the line at the weekend

 

Not for the high profile incident but he did a few laps later when he weaved around to stop Hamilton overtaking with DRS. Although the red mist had decended by then.

 

So it's the broadcasters as well as the FIA who are in on this conspiracy? And presumably 'Red Bull fans' covers anybody who disagrees, if so then yep you've nailed it.

The FIA have access to all the telemetry, team radio, accelerometers, footage etc (I know for the Brazil incident they were apparently missing some onboard, but generally speaking they have enough info any way). You have access to some TV footage which you claim is corrupt. I'd tend to trust their apportionment of blame as reliable, with only the severity of penalty being down to opinion.

Definitely a lot of bias in your posts.

 

Overall I'd tend to agree.

That said, Copse is a flat-out/slight lift corner (depending on season) if you take the racing line. It's also an important corner to maintain momentum on, given it has straight - Maggots/Becketts - straight direcly afterwards you'd lose A LOT of time yielding around there, so all drivers are reluctant to do so. It's the kind of corner where the inside line is only a legitimate overtaking spot if it's almost completed before the bend, Hamilton should've realised it wasn't going to work and pulled out - ultimately the stewards agree. If the impact was more side-by-side then it probably would've been ruled a racing incident, but it was wing to rear corner. In my opinion the context of being such a dangerous location and easily avoidable makes a more severe penalty warranted.

The stamp on the brakes at the end of the incident last weekend was stupid, from tv footage to me it didn't look sudden but from my understanding the telemetry shows he slowed gradually and then slammed them on right at the end when it became clear Lewis was happy to sit in behind. That is deserving of a penalty, for sure, but was more a punishment for stupidity/petulance than danger. It also sounds like they didn't buy the excuse of 'I didn't know what was happening' and instead say both competitors were avoiding the DRS detection line, hence saying predominantly to blame and not completely.

Both drive each other off the track whenever they get the opportunity. As well as anybody else who will put up a fight, for that matter. Max's issue is he's doing it in high profile situations and getting attention for it.

 

Can't stand smarmy Horner, clown Marko, or anything or anyone to do with that team

Take this example of total bull**** from Marko

“We feel we have been treated unfairly. We are working to prove Max’s braking pressure did not increase when he crashed with Hamilton. Hamilton simply misjudged and drove into Max’s car. Unfortunately, that left two big cuts in our rear tyre. That’s why we couldn’t attack anymore.”

How do you know when a Red Bull exec is lying? They open their mouth.

You call it bias, I call it good taste

 

Can't argue with much of that, although I do think you underplay: 1. That Max is the one initiating the pushing the limits of precedent, ignoring the unwritten rules around when to concede the racing line, giving positions back and exceeding track limits, which has forced his rivals to do the same. 2. That whilst both drivers have made mistakes this season, Max has genuinely seen red in a few races and it is his attitude of thinking he is above the rules that is dangerous, not just a brake test in isolation.

But appreciate we aren't likely to agree, and look forward to discussing the race post Sunday.

What's clear is that Max is an exceedingly special talent, who will win numerous titles this decade, whatever happens this weekend.

 

Max kinda reminds me of Lewis in the season (2009?) when he seemed to crash into Massa every race. Though Max seems to be taking it to a new level.

Admittedly I’m a Lewis fan and have been since 2007 but I really want a good clean fight at the front and Max has made a great job of being an antagonist for me.

The lack of self awareness is quite astonishing and he just strikes me as being a bit of a cnt tbh. Very talented but the temperament is awful at the moment imo. He’s not a kid anymore and needs to grow up fairly sharpish to make the most of the talent he has.

It’s been a thrilling season though and it’s nice to have a genuine rivalry at the front even if it is a bit pantomime.

Here’s hoping for a good race on Sunday without too much controversy. Can’t wait!

 

I was actually just about to make the point that Max is like a young Hamilton, in terms of temprement and incidents, but you beat me to it! I honestly think the controversy is because somebody is fighting Hamilton with his own tactics, although he's more mature now and knows how to play the game in a more canny way ("Oh no, I had no idea what was going on, 'onest guv'nor").

The irony is, a lot of my dislike of Lewis comes from his behaviour in those early years (not all of it, he's still a whingey *******), but now I like Max because he's doing the same thing back. If Lewis wasn't there I'd probably think Max is a ******* too.

 

I would say Lewis re-wrote the rules on conceding the racing line, that's never been one of the unwritten rules he adheres to. But certainly the lack of understanding regarding giving positions back after exceeding track limits is a Verstappen thing, everybody knows that rule except him.

Regarding the red mist, Hamilton seems to have an unrivalled ability to get into his rivals heads. Verstappen, Vettel and Rosberg have all done stupid things to Lewis they've not done to anybody else. Maybe Hamilton's annoying whining on the radio and in interviews is his way of venting to prevent that red mist descending, which is what gives him the edge in those important moments.

I very much doubt Verstappen will win the championship now though, I can't see how anything but a mechanical will stop Hamilton.

 

Verstappen just comes across as a bit of a ****

 

Think he’d help himself if showed a bit of a sense of humour and some self-deprivation. Just comes across as highly strung, clearly feeling the pressure and pretty robot-like.

 

Red Bull aced Q3. Fair play. Why did Mercedes not use Bottas in the same way as Red Bull used Perez?

 

Massive tactical blunder there.

Maybe they didn’t trust Bottas to not be useless. How bad do you have to be to start outside the top 5 in a Mercedes?

 

Marginally optimal tyre strategy is mediums to lap 18, then hards to the end. Max will likely be stopping around lap 14.

The key questions will be whether anyone on softs can jump Hamilton off the start, whether Max gets held up after his stop and whether/ when there is a safety car.

 

Sets things up nicely. Team orders unlikely to be a factor and a straight race for the Championship.

Lando Norris saying he is a bit nervous about P3 given the magnitude of the situation. Just go for it Lando, whatever happens, happens. What a star he will be.

 

Alpha Romeo bad.

 

Ha imagine if he locked up and clipped Max’s car. He’d be sent death threats.

I imagine he’ll try and be quick off the line, but he’ll leave plenty of space at the corner.

 

If Max can get out of DRS range quickly from the start and then look after his softs (and maybe even extend the window slightly), he'll be the massive favourite. Mercedes haven't been great at using pit stops to over/undercut all season and I doubt their strategists will suddenly come up trumps tomorrow. It'll be up to Lewis to drive the wheels off his car and hope Max and Red Bull crumble a bit under the pressure.

 

I've convinced myself that there will be an incident at the start that decides the title immediately. Either between Hamilton and Verstappen or Norris gives someone a puncture.

Most anticipated race in a very long time. If I'm nervous I'm sure they are!

 

From the tyres Lewis will be 1 stopping, Max may need to 2 stop. Going to be fascinating. Pit stop costs c23 seconds.

 

I think Lewis needs to watch out for the three cars behind him on softs off the line. He’ll struggle for the first few laps, but hopefully wont lock up/ be overtaken. I reckon Max will easily pick up a few seconds here.

I wonder if Lewis will try to go long and potentially hold out for a safety car, or use the rest of his mediums chasing down Max, trying to get him to pit early and hit traffic.

 

Forgotten how much I disliked Nick Rosberg. He's very bitter over Hamilton.

 

Are you ready?

 

Hamilton will have to give that back. Max had the better of him into that corner.

Edit: Ha, stewards say not. Applying Red Bull’s Brazil precedent.