F1/ Formula E/ Motorsport Thread

Devils advocate... FIA told Red Bull to give back the position, FIA told Mercedes he was giving the position back. Hamilton hit Verstappen. Is that not a penalty for Hamilton for causing a collision?

Whether the team told Hamilton is irrelevant, the FIA told Mercedes so it's their own fault.

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And now the stewards are contradicting their own ruling by handing out a time penalty! What a mess

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Not sure I’d go that far but certainly doesn’t make sense. Why did Hamilton pull in behind Max rather than just go past? If Max had say a power issue, rather than an intention to cede the place, would Hamilton have still hit him? Bizarre.

 

Great entertainment, going down to the last race!

 

Why wouldn't you?

If you brake for a corner and somebody hits the back of you, they get penalised. What's the difference? Although it'd be a 10 second, which combined with Max's double penalty means it'd remain unchanged. Merc don't get penalised the same as other teams (£££)

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Very exciting if not for the right reasons.

It does set up the last race nicely, assuming neither get any penalties between now and then.

Not sure if we'll see another Saudi Grand Prix though. It was quite literally a bit of a car crash tbh.

 

Verstappen needs to be reminded that he isnt playing one of his simulation games, the kid is a total clown. Hope Hamilton can win it next weekend after Verstappen basically tried to cheat his way to the title tonight.

 

There's only one bad incident from Max's point, the first restart. Other than that, why is he a clown?

I mean you could argue the title is only close because Hamilton cheated by taking out his rival at Silverstone. That's 25 points Hamilton got that day, when Max got a DNF. And you can't argue that Lewis wasn't cheating, he got a (lenient) penalty for it!

 

Do they always get penalised? I know they can be. Not sure the situations are comparable either. It wasn’t exactly in a braking zone.

Red Bull off to the stewards shortly for the alleged brake test but I’ll be surprised if anything comes of it.

 

I can't recall a more disgusting display of bad sportsmanship and dangerous driving

Had it been anyone else they would have been black flagged, because Liberty want Max to win the WDC he's allowed to get away with it

 

It was just before the DRS line, so Max would instantly have got DRS

Massi should have given him a penalty when he did it the first time, the kid is out of control

 

Hamilton summoned to the stewards for causing a collision now too, according to the BBC.

 

It depends on the situation really, if it's a crowded area (first corner, restart after a SC etc) then ususally not. If it's in 'open-play' then yes, pretty much without fail. The replays show Hamilton had time to move around Max (he had time to go down a few gears, so it can't argue it sprung up on him), so Mercedes's poor communication caused the collision. But as you say, even if he didn't get the message why didn't Lewis move around Max?

Merc's radio message to the FIA also contradicts itself, first they say they were talking to the race director at the time of impact and then they say they were talking to their engineer at the time of the impact. Not the most convincing argument! The blame is with their communication, not the race director, not Hamilton and not Verstappen.

Also, did they clarify which incident was the 5 second penalty for?

 

Nothing in the rules about where you cede a position.

 

Will be interesting to see how it really played out. I’m sure it’ll come out eventually. Ron Meadows was clearly highly stressed at the point of that message so it’s no surprise it wasn’t super coherent.

99% sure it’s for the failure to give back the place for the Turn 1 incident where Hamilton caught Max down the straight and overtook him down the outside, only for them to end up tangling and Max going off track to maintain the lead. Then when Max did let him though, at the second attempt, he immediately retook the place having let Hamilton past for only half a second. Not sure that was exactly in the spirit of giving a place back.

 

The FIA have really been appauling in handling racing incidents recently. The communication error in the build up is not acceptable at any level of competition. Max shouldn't be holding the racing line when letting him past, but Lewis had so much time and space to pass him on the left yet carried on forward anyway.

 

Rule 27.4

 

'27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.'

I repeat, nothing in the rules about where you cede a position.
Also, on your new point if you've been told to give back a position but the driver behind won't overtake for some confusing reason, what should you do?

 

That'd be fair enough if so, although I would expect them to instruct them to give the position back again (which they did). Ultimately Max wouldn't have been able to hold him off any way, but it does seem like more miscommunication leading to a double penalty.

 

If you recall Spa 2008, Lewis did the same thing to Kimi and was penalised. The FIA added straight and 1 corner rule after that after giving a place back.

 

https://twitter.com/SoyMotor/status/1467595174343856130

Didn't he say he was confused on the radio after the collision? It was still not good from Max doing it in the middle of the track, but that does seem odd to say that now.

EDIT: This was in regards to pushing him off after the 2nd pass.

 

Slowing in a chicane v slowing on a straight could be judged different levels of danger for instance, so actually yes it does.

Max must choose a place which is not dangerous, slow to allow the car past, maintain a steady speed, and keep off the racing line. None of which he did.

 

So, let me get this straight, you want Max to slow down in a chicane to cede a position? A chicane? You know, those things with one line. You want him to go slow through there, because it's safer than reducing speed on the outside of a straight... That is what you're saying, right?

How often do you see in a race a blue flag and the commentators saying 'Oo, he's hit traffic at a bad time there' because they encounter a slower car in a chicane/complex? What is the standard, ideal place for a blue flag? A straight. What do the slower drivers do on said straight, they reduce speed and leave space to pass. That's what Max did.

 

Eh?

At what point did I day I wanted Max to give the place back on a chicane?

Please re read my post. I used a straight and a chicane as examples of places which are safe and unsafe to hand a place back, after you claimed the rules said nothing about where a place should be handed back. It's inferred by the rule and the stewards will decide if it is done in a safe or unsafe manner.

Max chose to start to hand this place back on a corner; positioned himself in the centre of the track; braked, accelerated, and braked again; and moved under braking. Only someone mentally insane would think that's okay.

Max is toast.

 

Yep, I misunderstood your example as saying the chicane is the safe option.

On a street circuit the bend he chose is pretty much a straight. A bit like the straight at Brands Hatch, not a straight line but not a corner for a downforce car. So I disagree, I'd say that's a safe spot. The racing line is close to the left hand barrier, Max was 2/3 of the way to the right, so the line was free. There was plenty of time too.

https://twitter.com/LawsonSZN_/status/1467596581725683722?s=20

Yes, he slowed a lot but Hamilton refused to pass so what is he meant to do? Carry on and get a penalty?

 

10 second time penalty and 2 licence points for Verstappen. No punishment for Hamilton as the stewards found Verstappen braked erratically…

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1467624952438349825?s=21

 

If this is true and the penalty is being applied to this race it is a total cop out as the race result will remain the same, so in effect it is not a penalty at all. Therefore IMO it should be applied to the final race in Abu Dhabi.

And while we are on the subject what happened to 3 place grid penalty MV got earlier this season as he has never served it because he was relegated to the back of the grid for another offence in the race he was due to serve it.

Therefore why was MV not made to serve that 3 grid penalty in another race because otherwise he has got away with that penalty all together?

 

I think people's hatred of Hamilton is clouding what they're seeing with their own eyes. Max is dangerously out if control and has been for half the season. Today he showed that multiple times.

 

Equal points going into the final race is a dream scenario for the sport after years of one-man domination from Vettel and Hamilton (bar one Rosberg win).

I expect Hamilton's experience will see him through. Verstappen's time will come. Looking forward to it. Usually there are "If Verstappen wins and Hamilton comes 5th" ramifications, but finally a winner-takes-all race. Exciting!

 

He should hand the place back properly and stop acting like a d***head.

That first corner overtake off the track and unsafe rejoin... the Brazil defence... the 3 let-bys, 1 ineligible, 1 dangerous, 1 out braking himself.... his driving yesterday was appalling and worthy of a black flag.

The only thing worse than his driving was Massi negotiating with Red Bull instead of telling them to hand the place back. I couldn't believe what I was watching.

Totally incompetent. RIP F1 if he is allowed to keep his job next year.

 

It's certainly exciting but it's not quite winner takes all, as if both drivers don't finish Max wins the title on race wins. And so I fully expect as Max been doing for the whole of this season he'll simply go late on the brakes and bank on Hamilton backing out every time there's an overtake in the offing. 99% of the time it pays off. There currently doesn't seem to be a way to overtake Max outside of pit stop strategy as he outright refuses to back out where nearly ever other driver on the grid does.

 

This is all the product of an organisation that was intent on looking the other way for Max throughout the season.

Max never gives up a corner, despite the other car being clearly ahead, and just recklessly throws his car in the way without being able to make the corner. But he keeps benefitting from it. Even in the Hamilton crash, his stupidly late breaking got Ocon ahead before the red flag and Max took advantage at the restart. He also knows that a double DNF is in his favour.

The crash was a strange one and probably at the very least the joint fault of the race director, Mercedes and Max, although I’d argue really a consequence of teams being able to negotiate directly with the race director . Clearly Lewis wasn’t aware he could pass and I assume thought it was a VSC. Max clearly thought Hamilton was waiting until after the DRS zone and braked when Lewis was passing, rather than maintaining speed. If Max moved at all to the Hamilton’s side or braked just when Lewis went out to the side as Hamilton claimed, that should be a much more serious penalty. No other driver could pull the stunts Max did yesterday and get away without a 5 place grid reduction, let alone avoiding a stop and go.

The FIA have created a monster. I have never seen a driver get away with such dangerous acts of aggression with such few punishments. But now they are seeing the consequence of their favouritism, with events like yesterday, whilst exciting for the neutral, being an absolute disaster for F1s reputation on safety and integrity.

My money is on Max taking out Lewis in the final race.

 

Simply cannot understand the hatred for Hamilton. I get why the Dutch may be fed up with him because he is temporarily delaying the title going to the petulant and dangerous Verstappen, but Hamilton will go down as one of the best F1 drivers of all time.