Xisco Munoz

Discussion in 'Former Players Archive' started by The Recluse, Dec 18, 2020.

  1. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    Have to say, for all the complaints about how the media don't care about us at all/things that happen here don't make any waves, this story has really been picked up on - perhaps it's something to do with the fact that it came going into the start of an international break so there's no actual football being played, but alongside the Sky Sports manager graphics and the articles in the Guardian and the Telegraph and Talksport's various loud embarrassments, even Tortoise have made us the subject of their Playmaker podcast today: https://podfollow.com/1579093092/episode/44de2d5625fa2e417136842b0366eb6d72302864/view.
  2. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I'm not so sure he does learn. The same mistakes are constantly repeated at Watford. But it's all very odd. With Gino it's 70% genius, 30% lunacy. It's a strange combo. You're either brilliant or you're useless....it's rare to have both traits in one person.

    We tend to focus on the negative, and those are the things we find emotive. It's like when we lose, the aftermath of pages on this forum is far bigger than when we win. But for balance, I'm going to look at both sides...good and the bad.

    Just going over the last 12 months or so, I've seen the 70-30 combo in full swing. We hire Ivic (and I don't consider that a bad error at the time). He seemed to be a promising young coach. Once it became clear no one could stand him, he was quickly removed. The next part was genius. We hire a complete rookie no one had ever heard of, but he had the characteristics Gino felt would inspire a talented squad, and it worked fantastically well. Xisco won 17 of his 25 league games to ensure promotion.

    Subsequently, this is where the lunacy kicks in. Gino must have known, with all his experience of operating in the Premier League, what qualifications you need for that league. You're competing against the very best coaches in Europe and you continue with someone who doesn't even have the correct qualifications to manager in the EPL without special dispensation? It was never going to work, so why kid yourself it would?

    Then to the recruitment. Gino has employed a decent technical director in Giaretta by the looks of it. He does very well in assembling a squad for virtually a zero net spend. That's that another tick in the genius box, but the lunacy kicks in when they think only 4 CB's (who are largely of Championship standard) would be sufficient. An incredible oversight and underinvestment in the defence once more. If they knew they were going to be short, why did they sell Wilmot or loan out Pollock? It's all very strange.

    These conflicts in joined-up thinking crop up everywhere with Watford.

    I think Gino is an excellent owner, but he keeps shooting himself in the foot. It's why we get so far, but fall short. The model must be wrong with all this hiring and firing. It has to be, unless Watford's strategy is to just go along with the "new managerial bounce" to get them through a season, which I don't think is the plan.

    The genius aspect gets us to the Premier League, but the lunacy keeps us hovering on the precipice of relegation when I don't think it needs to be like this. Maybe more priority has to be given to the spine of the side and the quality of head coach. Spend some money on good solid Premier League level central defenders. These players tend to stick around for many years, so it's a worthwhile investment. Brighton, Burnley and Palace have had their backline players around for years, and they're all decent. Watford should be able to do this too.

    We can do the tough bit, by attracting players like Deulofeu, Pereyra, Sarr & Richarlison. Getting players of this quality or potential has to be a tough sell for a club like Watford, but we seem to do it regularly. But the more mundane or obvious flaws in the set up we seem to struggle with. It's this 30% failing Gino has to eradicate. If he manages to do that, we really could be a solid Premier League club knocking on the door of Europe EVERY season.
  3. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    It’s clear Gino places no real value in managers, and also clearly hates having to pay them off. I think this is a false economy though. In football terms the cost of the manager is a fraction of the player transfer fees and wages, even if you’re paying your manager a lot in manager terms, yet they have the biggest impact on results. We always go for out of work managers, who are generally out of work for a reason. I think he needs to rethink this and actually put his hand in his pocket and pay for a decent manager for once. If it all goes wrong then sure it’s going to cost him money, but if it goes right it’s going to save him an awful lot more in the long run.
    PowerJugs and Chumlax like this.
  4. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I agree. You tend to get what you pay for. I don't think Gino puts too much faith in a head coach which I believe is a mistake. I think he sees them as someone who just trains the squad, prepares the team for the next game and makes the necessary tactical tweaks during the match as well as be the public face of Watford in the media. It kind of stops there. I understand the simplicity of that, but Gino really needs to trust the guy he's employed far more. However, apart from a select few, I've not disagreed with any of the past dismissals, so this tells me, very few of the coaches we've hired are really all that good. In many cases, coaching Watford in the Premier League has been the pinnacle of their career. Very few have actually gone on to greater things after we sack them. So, that's very telling. We're not hiring the best coaches in the first place. We're undervaluing what a good head coach can do and don't really trust them when things go wrong. That attitude has to change.

    For the first time, we've now hired a coach with a glittering CV in terms of clubs managed. Ok, much of his career has been fairly mediocre, but he's a steady hand on the tiller. The more I think of it, he's probably a very good choice a newly promoted club. But, the next 10 games will be tough and Gino has to understand this, not just sack him if we lose 7 of the next 9, which could easily happen. I think in Ranieri you can trust he knows what he's doing, so you've got to back him through a predicted bad run (if it happens of course).

    Ranieri won't be around for long. He's a revolving door manager at a revolving door club, but it would be nice to think Watford and Ranieri could actually be a very good fit for each other, and the sacking trend stops. Maybe this is the time that will actually happen.....for the remainder of this season at least.
  5. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I agree with everything you say, the problem is can a leopard change its spots? Will Gino suddenly reevaluate his strategy? I’m not so sure.

    Whilst you can say that in the main, his methods work, the managerial appointments have been getting more and more erratic. QSF/Mazzari/Silva/Gracia all made sense at the time and had some sort of acumen. Although I think you can say Ivic was a more considered appointment along the lines of those four, he was sandwiched between QSF again, Pearson, Munoz and now Ranieri. QSF again was just madness, Pearson was a Hail Mary, Munoz turned out to be inspired, but you won’t get away with that type of appointment every time if you keep trying it, now Ranieri.

    Although his methods have worked in the main up until now, I think there is a definite pattern of increasing desperation emerging, and I don’t see that as being sustainable much longer.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2021
  6. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    By “trust”, do you mean Gino should let the Head Coach have a hand in recruitment of players, or do you just mean he shouldn’t sack them so quickly? I don’t see how it can be the latter if you have agreed with the sackings.
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    The trust refers to this particular appointment, and the difficulty of his first 9 or 10 games. I think Gino has to trust Ranieri has the ability to turn a possible bad run around.....and yes, I would like Ranieri included in the discussion on which type of players are required in the next window.
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  8. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    I agree that Ranieri will not be around for the long term, or probably even the medium term (outside the relativity that means seeing out a season is 'medium term' for us) but I also really don't see Gino determining much at all from the next seven games, or Claudio being at any significant risk as a result of them.

    Gino is often inexplicable, but fundamentally will be just as aware as everyone else of the insanity of this upcoming run of games - it was clearly some kind of factor in the decision to dismiss Xisco when he did.

    I really do not think that Ranieri has been brought in with the idea of being a desperate firefighter whose job is to magically turn it all around with unexpected swashbuckling wins from the off, and that's not really where we are as a club in this moment either - I think he's been brought in to provide a foundation and effectively 'reset' the season. The saving grace of Xisco's foray into the Prem is that we somehow have seven points from our comedic set of performances - not zero, or one.

    As long as we see coherent ideas on the pitch and players who look like they are capable of functioning as professional footballers again, I honestly don't see any further judgement coming until well into next year at a minimum.
  9. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Agreed. I think even if we get absolutely pummelled in the next 7 games, they are more likely to look at their summer business rather than point fingers at Ranieri.

    I think Ranieri will be here until the summer at least. I don’t think he will go before that. He’s been friends with the Pozzo’s for 30+yrs. I imagine there’s a lot of goodwill there. Personally, I think he will be here next season as well if we stay up. They may even allow him the option of staying if we go down - but I imagine Ranieri won’t be keen on Championship football.

    Either way, by our standards, it’s my opinion that Ranieri might actually be a settled appointment.
    PowerJugs and Chumlax like this.
  10. RS2

    RS2 Squad Player

    Ranieri will stay for the full two years as he has to lead us to a glorious title win next season.

    In the Championship.
  11. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I guess the ultimate dream/fantasy is one that pans out like Sampdoria, he keeps us up, stabilises us the following season and then hopefully Gino can put some proper thought into a more long term manager.
  12. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Haha, but in all seriousness, even if he does a decent job but we still go down a la the last former Leicester manager we had, if he isn't axed by then, I highly doubt he'll have the energy to go for a long hard slog in the Championship!
  13. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Good post.

    Nice to see some balanced , well thought out analysis , for once .
  14. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Squad Player

    Yeah, if he has any future as a manager even if it's not managing at the top level (and I imagine there are plenty of tougher jobs in say, the Segunda División than getting Watford promoted) he has to be able to step back and evaluate what he did more critically. I await his next managerial job(s) with interest if there are any, what he achieved in the Championship may have got a few clubs interested, rather than him possibly being the worst manager to manage in the Premier League.
    Eric IS Bananman likes this.
  15. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    We all have that one **** we work with don't we? If you don't, it's probably you!
  16. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Xisco will not go on to have any particularly distinguished kind of career in top-level management.

    At best, he will find himself doing the rounds of the petro-dollar states, China or the US, although even some of them may be a stretch in the way they're developing as footballing nations.

    Another big fish in a very small pond, a la Tblisi, might be the eventual answer - that, or punditry/a back-room job.
    lutonh8a likes this.
  17. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Squad Player

    Have I missed the boat on this one?
  18. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Hot money is on Ranieri now.
  19. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Squad Player

    The man of the moment.

    For approximately the next 5 months.
  20. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    This must be pretty crippling to our finances, having to pay off so many managers. I am not sure how much of Xisco's contract had to be paid up, does anyone know how long he had left?
  21. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    As a competition winner, all he got was a Watford FC tankard and his BFH.
    Chumlax, UEA_Hornet and SkylaRose like this.
  22. CaveManHornet

    CaveManHornet Reservist

    Absolutely, we must have spent tens of millions on managers the season we went down. I believe we paid Javi near to around 3 million alone!

    It has been said that Xisco was on a relatively low salary when we brought him in. Not sure whether he had a bonus clause upon promotion.
    SkylaRose likes this.
  23. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Well i hope they didn't need to pay Pearson off too much as he was in the last week of his contract?

    Guess managers like Slav was at the end of his contract whilst QSF first time had a break clause in his.
  24. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    Zola & Sanino both resigned, Garcia had a health scare.

    Anything we had to pay Snake would have been offset by the compensation from Everton.
    wfc4ever likes this.
  25. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    £4.5m received in season 18/19 from Everton re Silva- £6.7m paid out in 19/20 to sack Garcia, QSF and Pearson
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  26. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Thanks for posting that. I knew I'd heard somewhere we'd paid out a massive chunk in 19/20. I suppose most was Gracia on his bumper new deal.
  27. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Bookies not closed this yet!
  28. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

  29. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

  30. Heidar

    Heidar Squad Player

    Yeah, he won two really important games.

    But if he can't see how utterly dreadful the other five were then I can't help him. He had a full squad to pick from as well. Sorry Xisco, I like you, but there's a reason that certain coaching badges are required and we saw it on the pitch.
    SkylaRose likes this.
  31. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    You have to understand that the Premier is not easy, Leeds, when I was fired, only had one victory.

    Yes, that’s kind of the point Xisco.
  32. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    Not a classic look, to be honest - other clubs will be paying attention to these kinds of things; if they're enough of a basket case to be considering him for a role in the first place, that is.
  33. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Different circumstances, but in the same vein I’m not sure Chris Wilder did himself any favours with how he conducted himself last season with the things he said. I think owners definitely pick up on things like that.
    Chumlax likes this.
  34. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Clearly fuming at being back behind the bar at some tapas restaurant in Mallorca.
    Bubble and a19tgg like this.
  35. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    What did he do/say ?

    It seemed like the relationship between manager and owner had run it course there and obviously they were on a downwards spiral.

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