I agree that Watford may have known of Newcastle's interest for a while. However, it is highly unlikely that Martins would be an immediate replacement for João Pedro because Fluminense are in 4th place in the Serie A league table in Brazil. They were in 2nd place before they lost to Internacional at the weekend and they are only one point behind the two teams in 2nd and 3rd positions. Their ambition is to be one of the six Brazilian clubs who qualify for the Copa Libertadores. As a result, Fluminense have made it very clear - despite their financial problems - that they will not allow Martins to leave until the end of the season in December. He is regarded as too important for the team. Matheus Martins - if he were signed - could be a long term replacement for João Pedro.
Isn't that only for inbound (to Brazil) transfers? Not 100% sure but over here haven't we had our window close on 31 August or whatever and then players move to Russia and elsewhere within the next fortnight as their window closes later?
Must be as I highly doubt they would block moves to the highly lucrative European leagues whose windows close later.
But how does someone without an international cap even get close to a work permit - The thing that got Asprilla over the line was his call up
He's played for Brazil at U20 level and has played in continental competition, in addition to featuring in the domestic league, that must be worth quite a few points, and if it's not enough, surely we could put in an appeal if we really think he's going to feature for us regularly this season
Only issue with Brazil's window closing is after today it presumably rules out the option of signing him and loaning him back until their season finishes?
The big points come from full caps - maybe the system allows for appeals but can you see that happening in time (unless it started long ago) My fear is that our balance sheet is being used to provide Udinese the player - they made 4 unsuccessful bids according to rumour - so i wonder if he is even contemplated as a Watford player?
The Brazilian league, and South American continental competitions are now much more important than international appearances under the new system. Asprilla was in the Colombian league which is in a lower band and I don’t think Envigado had played in any of the continental competitions. Martins has 17 points most of which are from playing in the Brasileiro and the Libertadores. https://analyticsfc.co.uk/gbe-calculator/ This used to be the case but isn’t any more. Some points are available from international appearances (and only at senior level) but most players will receive most of their points on account of quantity of league minutes and the quality or band of the league. Under the new system, South American sides, in particular those in Brazil, Argentina or participating in continental competitions, get a lot of points so I think we’ll see more South American players headed to the Championship direct from South America over the next few years (and Norwich have already signed Marcelino Nunez and Gabriel Sara as a result).
You're correct about the Brazilian league, but pretty sure Asprilla got a work permit because Colombia were kind enough to hand him an international cap.
Yes, it's such a heartwarming story that even in these times of massive corruption in world football the Colombian FA gave an 18 year old his international debut based on pure talent after making just 22 league appearances. Such a wonderful example of sporting integrity at its best. Im sure his club's announcement, less than 24 hours after his international debut, that he'd be joining WFC was totally coincidental.
I believe (though it is scantly reported on) that Asprilla did not qualify through the usual/automatic process. His Colombia ‘cap’ was useful as it helped substantiate our argument that he is a special talent etc and/or may have helped him reach the threshold for appeal but playing a few minutes in one friendly that may have questionable status under these rules anyway (it was only for players based in South America) doesn’t count for that much. If he’d played in 40%+ of Columbia’s national team minutes then he’d have been an auto pass for a work permit, but he didn’t. He played one match, 47 minutes. If it counted then it would have earned him 7 points. The Colombian league is Band 4 which means hat even if he’d played 90+% of mins he would only have earned 6 points. 15 are required. https://worldfootballindex.com/2020...st-brexit-english-clubs-efl-libertadores/amp/ This is an odd line to take though I know you have certain (racist) theories about the Pozzos and Colombia. He played in the game because it was an exceedingly young squad made of domestic/South American Colombian talent. He played really well. It didn’t make that much of a difference, at least not directly, in securing him enough points to get a work permit without appealing to the English FA for an exemption.
Agreed - I noted that it was unclear if it counted. I’m not sure it matters whether it was a friendly or competitive game, but more that this was some sort of semi-international with much of the squad unavailable.
The international friendly would have counted, and so earned him 7 points. The official FA document I've shared below literally says: "Available International Matches shall also include International Friendlies." Asprilla also only played between 70-79% of league minutes for Envigado, so only got 4 points from that, not 6. However, you also earn an additional amount of points purely from the league the selling club is in (as long as the player has been in the match day squad at least once). This is section 38 in the full official document which is linked below. Colombian league is band 4 and so he'd have got an additional 6 points purely from that, on top of the points from the minutes percentage. He also would have gained 3 points from being an U21 player making his first team debut in a Band 4 league in the preceding season (section 41). This would make 7+4+6+3 = 20. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw25WpMepV9ne23jiXNcydrs
As per my post above, the FA official document explicitly states that international fixtures does include friendlies.
Last time I checked neither the Pozzo family, Italians, nor the population of Colombia were a race. However I do have opinions about both based on my personal experience. My personal experience of the Pozzo family is that they've destroyed my football team's finances. I wouldnt care what other dodgy stuff they were involved in if it wasnt for the 9 figure debt they're hanging round our necks like a Colombian kidnapper bomb. Regarding Colombia, firstly Id point out that although Colombian isnt a race, Colombia is an extremely racist country. So while u say I'm racist about Colombians, who are not a race, I'd say I'm deeply opposed to the horrendous racism that's widespread in Colombia. My comments about corruption and money laundering in Colombia aren't disputed by anyone who knows anything about Colombia. You could verify them with a quick google search. I have to say that I probably have a much deeper knowledge of Colombia than u do given tbat I've been there 4 times for a total of 6 months, speak spanish and have been to a wide range of places there from Pasto to San Andres to Leticia and also to both Cucho and Luis Suarez's home towns and where Asprilla was playing before he joined Watford. My views on Colombia are based on my experiences there.
I don’t know how you have the confidence to state with certainty that an international friendly match that did not feature the vast majority of Colombia’s first team players would count. If you look at my post again you will see I note that friendly/competitive is not the relevant distinction, it is whether the match constitutes a full international. That’s unclear to me. It is a fairly common practice among South American and African sides to host international matches outside of designated international breaks and use them to blood domestic talent. You are correct though that Asprilla would have received both Band 4 minutes and Band 4 registration points.
The FA document literally states that Friendly Internationals count. The document says nothing about "but friendly internationals which don't involve all your best foreign players don't count". The match is still a friendly international. He is recorded as having made his national team debut.
Recorded by whom? Unless it’s by the FA it’s not that relevant. There were several articles at the time which said it was unclear if the match would have any impact on his work permit eligibility. Page 5 defines International Friendlies as “any match played by the National Association’s senior team which is not a Senior Competitive International Match.” Given that there was a significant selection criterion that does not apply to the primary Colombian team (ie no players from outside of South America) it is reasonable to ask whether this constitutes a senior international. Either way, to pull things back to the original issue my initial point was that international matches have a smaller bearing on WP eligibility than they once did. And so Matheus Martins’ eligibility would be rooted in his appearances for Fluminese rather than Brazil u20 and that given that the Brasileiro is in a higher band than the Colombian league this would be a smoother process than with Asprilla.
In the case of Asprilla it still had a significant enough of a bearing to move him from 13 points to 20, thus making the difference in getting the work permit. That's largely to do with Colombia's national team being highly ranked by FIFA, despite their domestic league not being so well ranked in the FA criteria. If the international had not counted then we would have only been able to sign him after having an Exceptions Panel review our application. As far as I'm aware the transfer occurred quite smoothly without any notification of it being subject to an FA panel ruling - that in itself would appear to indicate that the international counted. It was widely reported when we tried to bring in Penaranda early as an outstanding talent and the application went to a tribunal - that doesn't seem to have the case with Asprilla.
There was a two week lag between the Colombia appearance and Watford’s confirmation of his arrival and during that time there were a number of articles which (unfortunately in not much detail) highlight that Watford were working hard on trying to secure a WP in late Jan but that it wasn’t straightforward. If he had 20 points and the club were certain that they would receive 7 international points, why would it be in doubt or not be straightforward? Perhaps as suggested earlier there was doubt whether the FA would view his Colombia appearance as a full international appearance? Given the club’s tendency for opaque communication, which seems more pronounced for our South American talents, you can appreciate that the club might not have been particularly clear about any potential appeal process if there was one. I wouldn’t view the lack of comment on that as indicative of much.
Perhaps the tribunal knew more about the relative credibility of Penaranda's and Asprilla's outstanding talents than we did
It seems quite remarkable that the FA would have been able to have the Exceptions Panel complete their decision within 2 weeks. In theory it shouldn't be impossible, but I'd be surprised if the FA were that efficient! Maybe the 2 weeks was indeed to just get confirmation that the international counted?
Sporting Lisbon interest now being reported, Udinese still being mentioned while Watford seem to be low on the list of suitors today.
Grabbed an assist last night at about 25 seconds into this video of some of his clips from the last 2 games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/myhk1frt9t0r8om/Martins2Games.mp4?dl=0
