Israel v Hamas

Israel manages very well to stop Hamas rockets, rendering them ineffective. They also have the use of incredible satellite technology and can deal with the tunnels effectively without targeting civilians. What they can't do much about is the sporadic kidnapping and then slaughter of Israeli citizens and yes it is a problem however their ways of retribution are more than excessive and bordering on the criminal at the very least.

 

i'm anti-hamas and anti-israeli military. and your analysis was almost so complete!

 

That's not quite true. About 500 rockets have got through this year causing damage etc. It's not perfect, the rockets are not ineffective.

You're right, what I meant to say was Anti-Hamas and Anti-IDF. Not pro-israeli/pro-hamas.

I think everyone can agree that civilians dying is bad. Terrorism is bad. Blockades are bad. Starving is bad. Fear is bad. Lack of human rights is bad. Propaganda is bad. Prejudice and racism is bad.

 

Damage to mostly desert, the Israeli dome actually allows them through. They're ineffective alright.

Why can't you just admit that the current conflict is wholly an act of revenge?

 

Why can't you just admit that the current conflict is wholly an act of terror by Hamas?

 

As a cause I don't deny it - so why is it being paid for by thousands of innocent citizens?

 

When terrorists fight from amongst civilians then casualties are going to happen. Same as in other battles vs terrorists

 

you've convinced me halfwayline. get the terrorists!

 

Having virtually admitted it is just revenge are you now going to tell me that Israel has no other way of dealing with Hamas that doesn't involve genocide?

 

Godfather - I respect your opinion but please do not bound around words like genocide. The Arab population has increased in Gaza every year since 1967. If Israel wanted to commit genocide then one nuclear bomb or 3 days of aerial blanket bombing would do the trick and NOT a ground invasion risking many IDF lives

I will come clean - the passion runs from having a 19 year old first cousin in the IDF. I am hugely sympathetic to the deaths of civilians but will never be swayed that the buck does not stop at Hamas

 

What shocks me is that we're always told how amazing missiles are these days. We can hit a pin head from 2000 miles away, etc etc. Yet the IDF manage to repeatedly hit accidental targets. Even if you believe Hamas put launch sites amongst civilians (to be honest, due to the population density in Gaza I think that's hard to deny), they'd have to be stacking the civilians on top of each other to cause this number of casualties!

Also, as long as the IDF are killing innocent civilians Hamas will have an endless supply of recruits. Killing causes anger, anger causes radicalism, radicalism causes more killing.

 

This is the second time a nuclear bomb has been mentioned (I think both by you, but I could be mistaken). They obviously can't use that option unless they want to wipe out their own population too, and contaminate the land they have battled so hard for the right to live on...

 

I respect your honesty and I understand Israel's plight, Hamas is a wicked organisation. I have no simple solution but I do strongly feel Israel's attempts to bully Hamas into submission are not only futile but are also counterproductive to Israel's wellbeing. Making bigger enemies of your existing ones isn't exactly common sense.

It's pretty pointless expecting Hamas to stop launching their [ineffective]rockets towards Israel but there's much respect to be gained if Israel can desist from the *** for tat when the excesses are clearly doing nothing but causing world-wide outrage. There is no winning to be had without causing this animosity.

 

A preposterous idea that might not go down too well with the rest of the World including half of the U.S.

 

If Israel wanted to commit true genocide then I don't think they would be too bothered about world opinion

 

They might be when the missiles aimed at them are 'hot' ones.

 

Yep, that's why the accusation that Israel is committing genocide is such a preposterous one

Get rid of Hamas
UN to marshall borders of Gaza and West Bank
Two state solution
Dismantle settlements
Invest "terror" money into creating an oasis in Gaza and West Bank, replicating what Israelis have created

 

That sounds a whole lot more reasonable but getting rid of Hamas has to be done in a much more sensible fashion, not by generating support for them as is happening now.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=bOruJeHQoE0

 

How do you propose to get rid of Hamas then?

 

That's pointless Carlos, the spoils of war as they say. However I'm not against integration though I'd want it to be less of the two class system it is now. Arabs and Israeli's living peacefully side by side on an equal footing would give the fanatics a lot less to shout about though admittedly it still won't cure their itch.

 

Your vision is already a reality...Jews and Arabs living peacefully side by side. It's called Israel

 

Yes I know, I've been there. The equal footing bit I didn't quite see so much of.

 

Really? Israeli Arabs have exactly the same rights as Israeli Jews. Israeli Arabs hold some top jobs in government, technology etc etc. same rights to healthcare and religion. The only difference is, except for the Druze, there is no compulsory drafting into the army

This ground operation will have come close to destroying Hamas
The Arab world is turning against Hamas
People of Gaza are turning on Hamas
I pray there will soon be peace

 

Admittedly I wasn't looking in detail and I'm sure there are cultural reasons but the street cleaners were Arabs, the cheap housing and high rises seemed to be occupied by Arabs and Israeli bosses seemed to treat their Arab staff like sh!t but admittedly I only saw a limited cross-section of society, don't take it as read.

 

It is nowhere as simple as a few two colour maps, Carlos. The original Transjordan, East of the River Jordan, now Jordan was also Palestinian land. Even King Hussein said "Jordan is Palestine, Palestine is Jordan" or words very similar. The land West of the River, was only around 25% of the overall land set aside to try and solve the issues early in the 19th century.

The maps illustrate a point, but don't do the reality any justice whatsoever.

 

To be honest the maps justify palestine dissent.

 

For what it's worth, I don't recognise Canada.

 

I'm a quarter Canadian! *Offers maple syrup in peace*

 

In 1946 the area labeled “Palestine” was the British Mandate of Palestine. All who lived there were "Palestinians" - Arab and Jewish. In the 1946 “map” these terms change. The Arab Palestinians are now simply “Palestinians.” The word “Palestinian” now means “Arab” and no longer refers to all of the people who live there, and the Jewish Palestinians are simply “Jews”. In 1946 Jews paid over 50% of property taxes in Palestine. Almost half of the land was public land, owned by no one and administered by the British. The premise that the land was almost all “Arab land” is nonsense. It was shared land and belonged to no particular ethnic group.

In the 1967 map in terms of “ethnic cleansing”, keeping in mind that before 1948, both Jews and Arabs lived in all of the areas of the British Mandate of Palestine, including the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. It is quite common to hear that the entire West Bank is “Arab Land” and always has been, but numerous Jewish communities existed in what is now the West Bank prior to 1948. These communities were attacked and wiped out by Arab mobs in 1920, 1929 and 1936 and during the war waged by Arab militias and Arab governments in 1947-48.

These maps were produced by BDS - another in the long line of incorrect propaganda produced by both sides

 

I would imagine in the same way as northern Ireland, Nicaragua, Columbia, panama, south Africa, the balklans, sierra Leone and every single other successfully (relatively speaking) resolved long lasting civil conflict. Replace blanket military operations with the stringent application of law and order (civilian power over military), the re-integration into society of the oppressed and marginalised through civic cooperation, economic recovery with a focus on economic autonomy, political enfrqnchisement and a commitment to truth and reconciliation processes. It's not exactly a unique situation.

 

http://www.israellycool.com/2014/08/05/bolt-hits-the-nail-on-the-head/

 

One of the Israeli Defense Force casualties was a kid named Max Steinberg who is an American of Jewish descent that visited Israel on an Israeli government sponsored program. A few months after returning, he enlisted in the IDF and was killed about three weeks ago. I would be only vaguely aware of it except that the star striker on my Riot Squad soccer team went to high school with him (a private Jewish school).

It got me thinking about whether or not as an American, I can approve of an American volunteering for a foreign military, and my strong instinct is no, although I have to keep reminding myself I am not a Jew and have to try hard to put myself I their shoes. Mostly I'm not successful, so I continue to withhold judgement...

Either way, it's a real shame he gave his life at all, and worst of all, for this campaign. A real waste.

 

Fitz - to understand it from a Jewish perspective. All Israeli citizens have to join the army at 18 unless you have a disability, Arab or a few other reasons. It is viewed as an honour to be protecting your country. Volunteers from outside can also join IDF but this is more regulated. Without saying too much, a family member had some issues in UK and joined IDF. The army has changed his habits. Every time a soldier dies, the whole of Israel mourns as it could be your son/daughter.

Almost all Israeli Jews view the current operation as vital to Israel's long term security and the support of IDF is unanimous. The stories circulating of the extent of the tunnels into Israel has taken all by surprise. What they, and the troops in Afghanistan, are fighting is truly scary. The days of being able to recognise your enemy is gone. Today the enemy could be a little old lady lying injured in the street. You go and help her and bang...the bomb strapped to her waist is detonated