Israel v Hamas

I truly can't disagree that the civilian casualties is upsetting to see regardless of your views. I'm not going to get into accusations of human shields/planting of rocket launches in civilian areas etc but I will repeat what I said earlier...if there was no Hamas (or similar terror unit) then there would be peace and a better life for those living in Gaza. The IDF has tried to limit casualties by going in on the ground at a greater risk to themselves

Hamas is broke and has been hurt. In the next two weeks I would expect a ceasefire to be reached. We will then have five years of finger pointing and accusations whilst those in Gaza still live in poverty. Then, when Hamas has restocked their rocket pile, the whole scenario will start again

Very depressing

 

So you're not contesting the fact that Gaza is under a de facto occupation, then?

 

You get that all Jews moved out of Gaza in the vain hope of delivering peace in 2005. Hamas fired rockets
You get that Israel has to marshal the border and build walls to stop suicide bombers entering Israel. It's worked

So let's get to your world. Israel doesn't marshal the borders....what do you think would happen? Let me help you, it happened in 48 and 67

 

Judging by the immediate attempt to justify without providing a straight answer, my take is that you do agree it's a de facto occupation but you don't want to say so.

 

The UN still considers Israel to be an occupying power - I consider them to be defending their borders from extremists intent on their destruction. If that's considered an occupation then yes. Is there a need for it then yes again

 

It could be argued that Hamas are occupying Gaza also. They seized control through violence and refuse to hold democratic elections.

 

I don't know how democratic the original elections were, weather women could vote etc. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could inform me.

 

i think given subsequent actions, it doesn't really matter. right now they are basically a junta

 

I think you misunderstood me. I was trying to explain why you, of others, are often accused of being anti Semitic. I have said above that I feel that nobody on this thread is coming from an anti Jew basis.

As for Hamas, I agree that by not agreeing with Israeli actions does not make you pro Hamas. But by understanding Hamas and the way they fight will make you better understand Israels reactions

 

i think its not uncontroversial to say that hamas has been acting like a junta since 2007

 

Yet another school hit today.

I have some sympathies for the Israeli position, and I have not a shred of sympathy for Hamas and feel they have orchestrated the current situation to win public support at the expense of their own people...

...but the continual military recklessness of the Israeli's is disgusting, foolish and without excuse.

 

One way or another you really are quite a nasty piece of work.

You're still as arrogant, patronising, condscending, obnoxious and the other things I accused you of as before (and it seems others are beginning to say much the same).

You are still the master of the 'straw man' school of debate.

Your comment above though is a new low for you, even by your own snidish standards.

 

Godfather, I just want to offer my sincere apologies. I thought that the general tone of the thread was bordering on anti -semetic, even if there were no actual such comments. But with you, I over-stepped the mark, and I even mistakenly attributed (in my mind) to you, that I later found to be made by someone else.

My inference was totally unwarranted, and I apologise.

 

I should think so too.
To aim such accusations at probably the least racist person you are ever likely to encounter is more than ridiculous.
The last time I did face such an accusation it was 'you're racist because you're white' ... true story.

 

Lol, and taken with such grace! :smile:

 

Isn't that a bit like saying "there's no such thing as Northerners or East Midlanders, only the English"? Certainly the people there in the area had a distinct identity, customs and perhaps dialect separate from Egyptians, Lebanese and Baghdadians, right? So what were those Arabs called? Can't some be left still? Or are you trying to say that all Arabs are homogeneous and interchangeable? I don't buy that for a second.

 

Didn't mean to Dislike.

 

No, many people's understanding is that the Israelis came in and displaced the Palestinians living in Palestine. My understanding is that they retained land in Gaza and West Bank after the atrocities of the Arab armies in 1948 and 1967 trying to wipe out the tiny Israeli state. If you do disagree maybe somebody could enlighten me with the answers to some questions about Palestine:

When was it founded and by whom?
What was its capital?
What were its major cities?
Can you name at least one Palestinian leader pre Arafat?
What was the language?
What was the main religion of Palestine?
What was the currency of Palestine?
As there is no country recognised today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

 

Here I'll help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Sorry Halfway we know Israel has a right to defend itself, we understand that much but can you please stop trying to justify their recent atrocities.

 

halfwayline, it's not as though saying you disgaree with the deaths of children is synonymous with disagreeing with israels existence. as is admitting that palestinians exists! it's empirically true, check inside the body bags!

 

Innocent people being killed is an atrocity, but is it Israel or hamas(who are herding people into dangerous areas).
Part of the problem is the media, let me share an experience I had 2 years ago. We were in Athens in the middle of the demonstrations(my wonderful wife booked it), we saw peaceful, well policed demonstrations. However when we saw the bbc footage it looked like a major riot and i can 100% tell you thats not how it was. We rely on what we see in the media, personally now I don't trust one bit

 

As I stated in thread 44, innocent civilian deaths is tragic. But unlike Godfathers view that this is down to Israels attrocities, I squarely lay the blame on Hamas

Unless I've missed it very few have recognised the fact that, in my view, if there was no Hamas/PLO/other terror organisation then there would be no need for a blockade or occupation or ground incursion into Gaza to stop the rockets/terror tunnels

 

Map of Palestine circa 100 AD per Ptolemy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Palestine,_Ptolemy,_Claude_R_Conder,_1889.jpg

1847 map of Palestine:

http://www.pinebrookmaps.com/servlet/the-file/ZoomifyerEZ-fdsh-1847mitchell2-dsh-071.htm/Page

1861 map of Palestine:

http://www.pinebrookmaps.com/servlet/the-file/ZoomifyerEZ-fdsh-1861johnson-dsh-025.htm/Page

Early video of Palestine in 1896:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vaIK8wlAl0

There is no shortage of historically vetted material proving that the world considered there to be a place called Palestine for a very long time and (here is the important bit) that there were people living there.

Which geopolitical entity preceded the current disputed borders? The British Mandate of...Palestine. Prior to that, it was an area that belonged to the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years. Are we now going to say Greece doesn't exist either, because it was once occupied by the Ottomans?

 

That's just flat out rubbish. If you fire an explosive that you know without a shadow of a doubt is going to cause civilian casualties, you're responsible for the damage. You don't get to blame the other guy you're fighting against just because he put you in a bad position.

Israel might have been able to justify the first waves of civilian casualties under the reason of "we didn't know". Without a doubt, now they DO know, and they're doing it anyway. They know that the bulk of the casualties on the Palestinian side are civilians. They know what will happen when they fire on schools. They know what will happen when they fire on civilian areas.

And they do it anyway. That's an atrocity, a crime against humanity and flat out evil.

It's mind boggling that the terrorists manage to kill almost exclusively military personnel on the other side while the military force consistently wipes out civilians.

 

This

Since day one Israel has escalated the situation regardless. They have a hugely effective defence system to hide behind which is being replenished by the U.S. as we speak... in my book that's called cowardly and their bombing is just inhuman.
And I really am a neutral, I'll not be justifying Hamas's actions either.

 

9 pages of fluff and now we get to the crux of the thread

Firstly, thank you, as you spent time answering my questions rather than just linking to Wikipedia.

The thread mainly has 3 questions:

1. Does Israel have a right to exist? Your answers are accurate but refer to a time after Israel was formed. I firmly believe that Israel has a right to exist and, from personal experience, that the Arabs living in Israel are treated well and have better rights than if they lived in one of their neighbouring Arab countries

2. Is West Bank/Gaza different? Absolutely. Both lands were occupied/borders closed after the neighbouring Arab countries tried to obliterate Israel. Defence of Israel would be very difficult without policing these areas.

3. Does Israel want to kill civilians in Gaza? This is where we are likely to disagree. I view Hamas as 100% responsible. They have a mandate to wipe out Israel, they kidnapped and killed the three teens, they and PLO have threatened terror in Istael for decades, they fire rockets into Israel (which only don't kill large numbers as Israel invests money into protection of their civilians compared to investing in terror), they fire rockets in civilian areas and surround the launch sites with civilians. Look at youtube, you will find plenty of examples

Reports are that the mass tunnels built were about to be used for a large terror strike on Israel. I can't confirm as there is so much misinformation but would explain Israels response. No other army, who had little interest in civilian casualties, would go to the extent the IDF do to limit them - including a ground incursion

What I understand is the worlds repulsion at TV pictures of kids dying. What I don't get is a white middle class English lady carrying a flag that states "we are with Hamas"

Get rid of Hamas and peace will follow

**edit: sorry, noticed response by norn

 

Israel "invests" obviously has a new meaning: they have always relied heavily on U.S. generosity.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-strip-us-congress-approves-225-million-donation-israels-iron-dome-1459439

Both parties need sit down at the table but no one seems willing to trade. As the stronger party Israel has to take the lead in peaceful negotiation or the death and destruction will just continue. One almost suspects they want it to. "Get rid of Hamas" in this fashion and you can be sure that the hatred among Arabs will only grow.

If you don't want to be labeled as racist then stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.

 

only two people on here seem to keep referencing israel's right to exist, one of them is you (the other i believe is the n'orn irish dude), so with that in mind, i highly contest that it is the 'crux' of the thread. if i keep talking about goldfish, it would be highly dubious of me in 30 posts time to assert that this is the real issue.

 

The real crux of the matter is that there are two things which both are terrible awful things but one or the other must happen.

Firstly either Israel can allow hamas to fire rockets into israel targeting civilians etc. Or Israel tries to stop the rocket attacks by attacking them which are placed near civilians. One or the other must occur. Pro-Israelis believe that Israel has a right to stop itself being attacked and therefore has a right to attack Hamas with dead civilians being a necessary evil. Pro-palestinians believe that Israel ought not to fire on hamas when there are civilians nearby and should just tolerate hamas attacks.

 

You can be both pro- Palestinian and pro-Israeli, alongside being anti-Hamas.

 

And Hamas is funded by Qatar. That funding should go to build hospitals and infrastructure but doesn't.

Israel will not negotiate with terrorists. When people recognise that Hamas is elected, and stays in power, through fear and a non terrorist organisation replaces them then there is a chance of peace

Where am I being racist? Where have I been anti Arab? Many parts of Europe are anti Jews but there are very few instances of anti Muslim attacks by Jews. Where have I said anything else except my strong view that Hamas is entirely to blame for the current situation

If we feel we are going around in circles then happy for admin to close this thread. Otherwise, quite happy to discuss