There are approximately 15.2 million Jewish people worldwide in 2021. Does every one of them have friends or relatives in Israel? A genuine question - I've worked alongside or known Jewish people over time, but haven't really heard them say anything about Israel, or them visiting Israel or calling there or anything. I'm not doubting you, but maybe I just haven't known enough about their family and friends links. Well I gave the links in tbe post - it was the british army museum. There seems little doubt it happened. The British were (for some reason) trying to prevent or limit the migration of Jewish people to Israel. That was the reason the British troops were getting attacked. Some British lord got assassinated by them too. This was just after WW2, so I'd suppose before the formation of Israel, but I'm not sure what significance that has. It was not an "attack" on Israelis or anybody else. It was a reporting of one of the few things I knew about the very complex background of the situation from personal experience. I joined the railway in 1979 and worked there through until 92. So the old boys I mentioned were in their 50s and 60s at the time. Long, boring night shifts in the shunters cabin or signal box, you find out quite a lot about people's lives and past history. No, I haven't been to see any camps in Poland. But those are not the first ones in history. One of the solutions to "removing the water in which the fish swim" in past history, has been to move civilian populations out of an area to stop them from feeding/housing or otherwise supporting fighters, into large camps where they are 'concentrated' together. The first such concentration camps were in Cuba during the 10 years independence War. The Spanish colonialists sent over a very cruel and harsh general, Valeriano Weyler who instituted precisely that policy. When I referred to concentration camps, I meant in that sense - large camps where people are 'concentrated" while the military sort out their differences between each other. If I were in gaza and no connection with any fighting or terrorism, especially if I had a family, I would certainly choose such a concentration camp as a slightly less worse option than getting caught up in the middle of a battlefield. More accurately I said that sending "more" weapons was not a good thing. It's adding petrol to the fire. Israel is surely already armed. Another are of my ignorance is the exact military capacities of Israel and Hamas, but I'm certainly of the general impression that the balance is heavily in favour of the Israelis. I questioned whether the USA needed to send a massive battleship and what it was supposed to do exactly. I don't suppose Hamas has a naval fleet to fight. That leaves shelling the shore from out at sea. Surely not an attractive option for anyone. It's writing! How on earth can it be 'framed' in any way? I'd suggest you read it in a Sarky voice or something, perhaps because of pre-conceived ideas about what 'lefties' think. In fact, as I explained in ny other post, I simply wanted to try to ascertain if it were true or not. What was the truth between conflicting claims, whilst avoiding having to Google such atrocities myself. One of the replies I had to that, explained that they thought Sunak was referring to there not being two sides with regard to that particular attack rather than the conflict in general. That makes more sense and I would tend to agree. However when it comes to the overall conflict, then of course there are two sides to it. There always are. In any war, both sides passionately believe right, reason and God are all on their side, while the enemy are a bunch of bastads. It's a long way away from here. I don't have relatives or friends on either side. Awful things happen over and again around tbe world. Complete brutality. You're asking me to just be outraged without trying to rationalise or think? That's a completely different aspect and deserving perhaps of its own thread. But this one is about the conflict. I'm an anti-racism campaigner in general as witnessed by a plethora of posts on this forum. Your accusation that I am insensitive to racism against anyone is completely unfounded and doesn't relate in the slightest to anything I've written here. I think the very first line of the very first post I made was a condemnation of the attack. The English language doesn't have words. The areas you list are precisely the areas I want to know about and try to understand more. If they appear insensitive to you or others, then I apologise in advance, but that stems from a lack of understanding rather than an intention to offend anyone. Try not reading them in the 'sarky' voice I mentioned! I have hardly hidden my lack of knowledge and understanding about the situation! I declared that from the start and just recounted personal experiences I've had and asked a couple of questions, which you seem to have interpreted as whataboutery. Thankyou! But on the question of prejudices, I mentioned that you seemed to have pre-conceived ideas about what a 'leftie' would think. I will do my very best to have an open mind about things, while you should try to drop the Sarky reading voice...
Not wishing to trivialise the seriousness of the subject but was reminded of this. Cleverer people than us, more involved in conflict haven't been able to sort it for decades. It's likely we are only being told what the various parties want us to hear. There's innocent victims on both sides.
I have asked this before: would any such Palestinian state be given back the land illegally seized from Palestinians over the last 20+ years, with the support & defence of the Israeli government? Without that happening, I do not believe there is any chance of a just & equitable solution. What will the response of the fanatical ‘Judaeans’ be? How will Israel deal with that sort of internal conflict, in the context of increasing influence of extremism within sectors of Israeli society? We can all wish for it, but do the necessary visionaries exist on either side? I’m not convinced.
I should have added, the open sore of 700k Palestinians being dispossessed to facilitate the creation of Israel in 1948 has never been adequately treated. The blame for that is not Israel’s alone, but that doesn’t reduce the continuing shadow it casts over the issue.
Clive, it’s an established fact that various Jewish terrorist groups waged guerrilla warfare against the UK authorities controlling the Palestinian Mandate. The campaign was suspended at the outset of WW2 but recommenced in 1944. The typical acts of terrorism were carried out by these groups and the frustrations felt by the UK led to them effectively ‘washing their hands’ of the issue and passing it to the fledgling UN. British personnel were killed by them during the campaign. Numerous future leading Israeli politicians were members of those groups, including future PM Menachem Begin.
There has always been harsh retribution. It’s pretty much policy, but ultimately it hasn’t led to peace. You are gambling on harsher being the answer. I also don’t think you can really suggest Palestinian people have hope at this moment, while columns of people fleeing (as they have been instructed to do) have been bombed. It’s a horrible situation, but it really can get even worse.
mot hasn’t led to peace as the attitude has historically been to contain Hamas and try to negotiate. But this has just not been possible over a long period of time and the weekend’s events demonstrate why never in my lifetime has Israel openly declared war on Hamas with a view to eradicate them there is no other solution. The weekend’s events changed the rules. Most Israelis views are clear - it’s either they go or Israel does
The bit I don’t get is when Gaza was under Egyptian rule and West Bank under Jordanian rule why was there no Palestinian state bought in then? Why was there no capital in East Jerusalem? but the above doesn’t help the situation. So the answer is yes to a two state solution but only if you can guarantee Israelis safety. The weekend saw why that is required and there will be no safety with Hamas in charge
The issue of the Jordanian West Bank is more relevant than the question of Egyptian Gaza, I think, as the Egyptians always linked Gaza to the wider solution of the issue. No matter what blame can be lain at the door of Jordan over 20 years (compared to over 50 years of Israeli control), I don’t think the Palestinians’ fate should be decided by the failings of others, friend or foe. What is the solution to the Settlements issue? That really is central to the whole West Bank.
They were known as the Stern Gang. I used to have a business relationship with an old boy who was strongly suspected of having been a member. He went on to make and lose several fortunes. He was good company if you could overlook the fact that as a young man he spent his time shooting british servicemen
It’s amazing that some put trigger warnings on Harry Potter books, but that is able to be tweeted. Horrible and can’t be unseen. No one would describe me as a religious man, but this is a bit simplistic. People rally around causes, and then only really see evidence which supports their point of view. The easiest way to control people is to exploit this, as powerful people have done throughout history, turning us v them in relation to politics, religion, culture or geography. I’d argue most of the worst modern atrocities haven’t been caused by religion whatsoever.
Official sources and unofficial sources cant be trusted, make your own mind up. Get off twitter too, Elon is running it into the ground on purpose.
The difference is Hamas is designated as a terrorist organisation, IDF is a (largely western funded) military and therefore has to be held accountable to the law. Laws which, ironically, were introduced by mostly jewish lawyers following the holocaust. They were introduced for the very purpose of idiots like you from imposing your moral relativism by defining very clearly what is and isn’t an acceptable target for all parties in a war. If Hamas members were arrested, they would, obviously, be tried for war crimes against civilians.
Religion and politics have nearly always been indistinguishable….both tend to be the veneer beneath which the socio-economic nexus of any culture operates. There is a reason elites tend to spend a lot of their capital of every type identifying with and underpinning religion and/or political creeds, thereby making them ‘established’.
I'll say it , although most of you wokies have me on ignore 1917 Balfour declaration Havaara agreement 1939 white paper Lehi Irgun Sergeants affair King David hotel bombing On and on ........
.....and if the IRA ever blew up a bunch of kids in a shopping mall again and the RAF raised a republican area to the ground in retribution I'm sure you wokies would all be justifying such barbarity that is only seen in Hollywood WW2 movies ?
Yeah carpet bombing civilian apartments in Dublin (also containing kids), then bizarrely cramming the whole population into County Cork (within 24 hr) long after doing so, while starving the entire population of Ireland would be an entirely proportional response and totally legal under international law…
The World Health Organization (WHO) says it strongly condemns Israel's orders for the evacuation of 22 hospitals treating more than 2,000 patients in northern Gaza. WHO said that the lives of those in intensive care or who rely on life support; newborns in incubators, and many others hang in the balance, in a statement. "Forcing more than 2,000 patients to relocate to southern Gaza... could be tantamount to a death sentence," the statement says. The WHO says that health workers have overwhelmingly chosen to stay behind, rather than risk moving their critically ill patients, a choice it calls "impossible". It also warns that many civilians are seeking refuge around hospitals, saying that their lives, too, are at risk "when health facilities are bombed". The WHO ends its statement by calling for Israel "to immediately reverse evacuation orders to hospitals in northern Gaza," and calls for "the protection of health facilities, health workers, patients, and civilians".
This, Carlos, is a reply to someone else's post. Because it isn't addressing anything I said. You idiot (if I may borrow your style for a moment). You describe one method of murder as worse than another, then try to take the moral high ground. And now you appear to be saying that Hamas gets a pass because they are terrorists. Would you like to clarify your meaning there? Far as I know they are also subject to the law. How desperately unpleasant of you.
Ironic. No, as I haven’t even mentioned the relative barbarity methods of murder at any point, in any context, anywhere that I can see. In fact, I haven’t even mentio “If Hamas members were arrested, they would, obviously, be tried for war crimes against civilians.” Perhaps you should learn to read, or maybe more appropriately not deliberately misrepresent what is written in its entirety. Not a single thing you have responded with has anything to do with my post, to the point I think you have just read what you wanted to read in your own mind and not the post itself. Clearly you have set out to engage dishonesty, but for your own sake I will just assume poor reading comprehension and move on, allowing you to address the substance of what was written and not what you wish was written so that you would have something to say.
I respond to this with your previous post, which begins with the words "The difference is", and I suggest that you ARE making the comparisons you say you are not making... If you don't want people to interpret your words for what they say, don't say them
It seems in your refusal to acknowledge the difference that you have come to the conclusion, without any input from myself, that the IDF are acting like a proscribed terrorist organisation rather than to the standards of a western military, so I do not have much to add.
"They [Israel] do have a duty to minimise civilian casualties and I've raised this in every conversation I've had with the Israeli government about this issue," Cleverly said. The foreign secretary is also asked whether the UK has raised any potential war crimes allegations with Israel - after the Norwegian Refugee Council's general secretary said forcing civilians to move south counted as such. "The UK government is absolutely committed to the adherence of international law," the foreign secretary said. He insisted the British government raises any breaches with Israel.
China’s foreign minister said Saturday that Israel has gone too far in responding to last week’s invasion by Hamas, China’s official news agency reported. Speaking to Saudi Arabian Foreign Minister Faisal bin Farhan Al Saud, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi said Israel’s actions have extended beyond self-defense. “China is in intensive communication with all parties to push for a ceasefire and an end to the fighting, he said, adding that the pressing task is to ensure the safety of civilians, open humanitarian corridors for aid as soon as possible, and protect the basic needs of the people in Gaza.”
Well you have at least come out and admitted that you are making those comparisons, which you were denying a couple of posts back. And that you are criticising me for having an opinion you do not like, rather than because I disagree with you (that is, I didn't disagree with you, I simply expressed dismay at the course you were taking the thread). And I'm sorry Carlos. But I haven't even mentioned the IDF. You are making up something in your head, and then attributing it to me. I merely pointed to the fact, which you appear now to be confirming, that the conversation on this forum, regrettably, was being steered into a discussion of how some murderous behaviour and methods are worse than others. Both parties are guilty of atrocities mate. Just like we were when we fought the nazis. Please don't say that saying so is taking sides.
Is there any other explanation for the attacks and threats that the UKs Jewish Community has experienced since this started than good old fashioned antisemitism?
Probably no other explanation, and let us not forget that being Jewish does not mean agreement with the policies of the Israeli government.
Video footage published by the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem appeared to show one Palestinian man in the village of At-Tuwani being shot at point blank range by an Israeli settler, as an Israeli soldier looked on. Nebal Farukh, from the Palestinian Red Crescent, told the BBC the organisation had documented more than 1,250 injuries to Palestinians in the West Bank in the same period. The group had also recorded 34 separate violations against its medical missions, Farukh said, including delays or denials from accessing the wounded, detaining of staff, and firing on medical crews or ambulances. - BBC
None whatsoever. There are always people who will use any event to express the hatred they already had inside.
Exactly. There will always be an element that will use this situation to demonise Jewish people in general for the actions of the Israeli government. Equally there is a huge amount of islamophobia being expressed on social media right now. Muslims in general are being blamed for the horrific atrocities carried out by Hamas. People are being emboldened by the situation to be openly antisemitic and racist which is both dangerous and very sad.
US President Joe Biden says he has spoken with Palestinian Authority President Abbas. He [Abbas] says he condemned Hamas’s attack on Israel and "reiterated that Hamas does not stand for the Palestinian people’s right to dignity and self-determination". - BBC
