Yes, getting rid of Hamas, and their supporters, and providing an alternative for the people of Palestine to get behind is a worthy goal. At the end of the day it took something similar to solve the once intractable issue of Northern Ireland. Now they have experienced relative peace for a quarter of a century it's difficult to see anyway back to the dark old days of "the troubles". My gut instinct is that Hamas knew what Israel would do in response to their atrocities. Indeed I think they made their actions as barbaric as possible to ensure that Israel would be as indiscriminate in their response as possible. They want "ordinary" Palestinians to be radicalised and the rest of the Arab world to be horrified by the inevitable "collateral damage" that Israeli forces will cause. If Hamas want it then the Israeli government should do everything in their power not to give it to them. They should be looking for justice not revenge. Unfortunately, as you say, don't hold your breath!
TBF, trying to understand the history & background is in no way ‘trying to rationalise’ anything, much less attempting to defend Hamas in any way. How did we get to a situation where an organisation such as Hamas could gain control and then achieve such a build up of weaponry to enable them to commit this atrocity? Hamas took control in 2007, the culmination of 60 years of international failure.
Unfortunately, when you have one side that refuses with some conviction to acknowledge the other sides right to even exist and perhaps more importantly has the resources and inclination to act on those convictions then where do you even begin with a peaceful resolution? I just dont see where you go from here. I thought Sunak was talking about the massacres over the weekend specifically, in which case I fully agree with him. 100%. There's nothing that can be said or 'side of events' that can possibly justify what Hamas did. What balance is there to be found in a group who, for example, took such glorification from parading around the semi naked dead body of a young female German tourist in front of a baying mob? In fairness I dont think anyone is painting Israel as being whiter than white - like Miked2006 points out above both sides have a long history of committing violent acts on each other. By all accounts, prior to last weekend thousands of Palestinians have died this year at the hands of the Israeli military/government. Likewise I havent seen anyone particularly painting the Palestinian people as the villains either and the reporting has been quite balanced. I think most people would agree that the civilians dying in the Israeli airstrikes are innocents but its also beyound dispute that these people wouldnt be getting bombed in the first place if it wasnt for the atrocities of Hamas. Do I agree that waving a flag through certain areas to be a criminal offense? No I wouldnt say I do agree with the Government there. However, if your going to do it so soon after the mass murder of innocent women & children then it would appear to be more of a targeted provocation I would argue then an exercise in free speech or protest against Israeli occupation. Especially in an area where a Jewish business was vandalised and anti-semitic graffiti put up. In regards to Sunak's comment about Hamas, he's right. They are a terrorist organisation and if someone is going to publicly support them on the streets then they deserve to be held to account in the same way as someone who publicly supported ISIS or any other terrorist group especially if that support, in whatever way, goes beyond merely vocalising their support of Hamas. I havent seen any video of babies being beheaded an nor do I want too. I have though seen plenty of the other videos such as the one of the German tourist in the back of the truck or the two women being used as human shields by Hamas in a firefight with security forces or the one with the captured young boy who looks totally shell shocked and filmed after Hamas fighters had just executed is younger sister. They make grim viewing. There really isnt any sort of defense of Hamas that can be put forward. I dont think it was the Israeli military that first put forward the claim about beheaded babies. That story seemed to spread pretty quickly over the weekend before the military got a handle on the situation. Could well be wrong mind. As far as I'm aware its claim that hasnt been denied either.
It was a response to the whataboutery and justification of one response. I have no issues with people disagreeing with the Israeli governments actions. I have no issues with debating history of the region. But, following the weekends events, if you're laying blame on the Israeli government and not apportioning any blame on the Hamas terrorists then you are either stupid or so warped in your views that communication is futile To answer your second question, you've already answered it as have others. The impending peace agreements with Saudis has led to Iran flexing their muscles through their terror groups
I can only assume the 'you' used in your post is not aimed directly at me as I have made no attempt to suggest Hamas does not deserve 100% blame for the atrocity of Saturday. I also believe the Israeli government, along with the UN and many governments of the international order, together with the various Palestinian representatives, all bear some blame for allowing the conditions to develop so that Hamas is capable of this type of atrocity. Such a viewpoint is neither stupid nor warped and should be afforded sufficient levels of communication to attempt to find a solution to the situation. I do not believe even the flattening of Gaza and the total destruction of Hamas (if either were possible) would prevent future horrors. The impending peace agreements with Saudi do not explain the original rise to power of Hamas.
my response was no way aimed at you... The PLO, their predecessor, were no better although at least there were peace talks. Would life have been better for the Palestinian people living in Gaza if Israel had not withdrawn from Gaza? We all understand that the civilians in the region would be better off if the funding had gone to better their lives and they had freedom of movement. But the weekends events shows that's just not possible whilst being governed by Hamas. From the Arab people I have spoken to there is definitely a different attitude from the majority in West Bank to that in Gaza. Maybe this will change the world's perspective that Hamas are freedom fighters and pressure will come to hold a democratic election and see if the population vote for change
On the remarks made by Sunak/Braverman, here is the letter from the latter to chief constables: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ollowing-the-israel-hamas-conflict-accessible
A lot of the above is clearly logical and totally reasonable, and I respect your viewpoint. I believe there are a couple of comments that could be made from a slightly different perspective. The Hamas commitment to the eradication of Israel obviously precludes them from entering into any meaningful negotiations, but even taking them out of the equation will still leave the same impasse that preceded them gaining control of Gaza (and from certain perspectives could be said to have facilitated it). I am sure the majority of Israelis want 'peace and security' as do the majority of Palestinians. Both parties, I am sure, would want any peace to be 'fair and equitable.' The problem at present is that I doubt either would accept the other's interpretation of the term. You rightly point out Palestinian support for Hamas and Hezbollah, (although not always a majority still a significant minority) as evidence of intransigence. In a similar vein, the election of Netanyahu as PM & the continued policy of aggressive settlement creation, sponored by the government & defended by the police & army, could be cited as eveidence of Israeli intransigence. Gaza became free of Jews effectively as part of official Israeli government policy. The control of the physical borders I can understand; to use the control of supply of all utilities etc as a tool of strategy is another matter. I am not convinced returning occupied territory to the rightful ownership of the soveriegn state of which it forms part can be viewed as disinterested peace negotiation. Israel had to respond, I agree. The question is how to resolve this very complex issue going forwards. Simply blaming Palestinian intransigence is neither useful nor reasonable.
You could start with some research maybe? EDIT: I see from a later post you have first hand experience, so I accept the above comment may be inappropriate. At the same time there have been instances of the type Clive referred to, even if most IDF soldiers attempt to follow the protocols. Of course, when Israeli forces are used to protect illegal settlements, the question of any blame shifts to the soldiers' political masters.
I don't disagree with much of what you say. Some may say that the sovereign state foregoes their right to retain ownership after attacking the country that occupied the land post war to use as a buffer zone incase of future attack. But that's a debate for another day. I am definitely not a Netanyahu supporter but I am at a loss to know next steps as the weekend has reinforced the hardline view that negotiating with terrorists is impossible. So we all know what we will be witnessing over the next two weeks. 18 year old boys trawling through one of the most populated areas in the world open to snipers and IED's whilst trying to differentiate between terrorist and civilian. Worse than Afghanistan. Heavy machinery will not work in those tight streets. Many many deaths on each side. We all know that will create future generations of hatred for Israel. We all know that if it doesn't happen then the weekend's event will be a recurring event in South and North Israel. We all hope that Hamas can be wiped out but, personally, don't think that is possible as guessing most the leadership will be in Qatar by now. We all hope that, once the incursion is complete and I'm guessing troops occupy the region again then there can be a huge focus on rebuilding Gaza. Diverting the world aid to it's rightful place and build hospitals, schools, create jobs, create their own water and power supplies. Gazans understand that they are better off than they were before....similar to many (not all) in the West Bank and definitely the vast majority of Arabs living in Israel. But there are no easy solutions here...
I don't know if it is true but I read online that the Jewish Times estimated Hamas had 30,000 men in 2021. That's 30,000 out of a population of 2 million people in Gaza. That is just 1.5% I don't have the answer. It's almost impossible for Israel to eliminate those 30,000 without innocent people also dying. The real danger is that number, and the percentage, of the population, that actively support Hamas after the current Israeli offensive may be greater if too many non-combatants are killed in the process. A thankless task for those poor young, mostly conscripted, Israeli soldiers on the ground.
Actually the real danger is that the incursion fails. And Hamas and Hezbollah, alongside Iran, are encouraged to act out their charter...
Just to contextualize this, the UK army (no navy, no air force) has about 75,000 personnel. 30,000 might be a relatively small percentage, but in the context of a military threat it is significant. This is especially true when it is singularly focused on one target without defensive concerns, can conduct a clandestine guerrilla war, and is willing to operate without any desire to follow international rules of engagement (read: happy to commit war crimes and engage in terrorism).
Egypt and a US source both claiming that the Israeli government was warned something big was coming. Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says - BBC News Seems a major failing by the Israeli government and the intelligence services if true.
By the sounds of what others have said about international forces on either side manipulating, funding and arming, there's going to be a whole load of conspiracy theories incoming. Even within tbe US itself, there are all sorts of divisions and differing political power struggles and manoeuvrings going on. If this is true, the question of who told who, when and how, will be a doozy.
Seems highly, highly unlikely the US and Egypt would both make something up though. Even if Egypt did, I don't see the endgame for a house rep on the Foreign Affairs Committee just inventing details, particularly given how broadly supportive of Israel the Republicans are; he absolutely would have access to classified US intel.
I’d treat this with scepticism, to be frank. There isn’t any detail about how explicit it was and we don’t know if Israel gets two or three of these a day. It’s also an odd and unhelpful thing to brief on given the timing and Israel’s own investigation. It seems like Republican attention seeking.
Could be. They've been pretty shameless as of late. I assume someone's going to provide the receipts at some point, if they exist.
It became clearer when the full quote emerged that Israel and the US had been warned. So it’s probably a pop at the US Government with the Israeli one as collateral damage.
Seems that's a pretty weak jab, if so. What was the US going to do, exactly, rush troops into Israel without being invited?
Remember when Ursula von der Leyen condemned Russian attacks on Ukrainian civilian infrastructure and blockading energy and food as war crimes? Those times were wild.
Without question, the Hamas assault is one of the foulest crimes against humanity, a truly awful and grotesque series of barbaric terrorist attacks. It might seem insensitive to then call for restraint from Israel, but it is not wrong to do so. We have international law to protect non-combatants for good reason, even if there is little reason to suspect Hamas would observe them in return. But non-combatants are just that and have rights, however guilty Hamas are. Indeed many are also the victims of Hamas. And more practically, this is a cycle of violence. The killing of yet more babies and more children will likely only perpetuate it and lead to the death of more in generations to come. It may also lead to wider conflict. It is clear that Israel cannot tolerate Hamas’s existence any longer and should not have to. How it achieves that could potentially be aided by the international community in the coming weeks by providing a corridor and refuge to those uninvolved. This would allow Israel clear sight of its target, lowering the civilian and Israeli military casualties. Israel is going to take Gaza. It’s just a question of how it goes down and what remains after. It’s a hard question to ask people who have suffered so badly, but is such heavy bombardment the only option open now?
What was Hamas’ real end game when they planned their attack, especially considering the astonishing level of ferocity and bestiality involved? Force Israel into its own version of a ‘final solution’ to the problem of Hamas in Gaza? Hoping the full implications of that would unite the Arab world in a full jihad against Israel? I cannot believe their leadership was really willing to sacrifice thousands of their fighters, and many more thousands of Gazan civilians, for the short-term ‘glory’ of slaughtering so many Israeli civilians. There must be something more to their aims.
the tactic will be as you say. Wipe out as many ammunition dumps and also displace people from the overcrowded Gaza city to the Egyptian border by use of air strikes. Get the women and children and aged out through a corridor into Egypt. Use the power as a negotiation tool to get the hostages returned. Then go in to one of the most treacherous battle grounds in the world and look to eradicate each and every terrorist And, at the end of it, create a better future for the civilians within Gaza
I believe it. Plenty of the army reservists were protesting Netanyahu and the far right’s power grab of the judiciary. It’s not a huge leap to think the Civil Service or security forces were distracted or stretched.
Fair enough. It was a genuine question as I had seen people questioning whether it was true or not - it seemed the only source for the story of 40 beheaded babies came from one Israeli soldier who told a reporter that's what had happened. I'm surprised they're printing such a picture to be honest. All they need to do is for a reliable reporter or two to say he/she had seen it for him or herself.
Unfortunately, we've passed the point where everyone believes a 'reliable' reporter. One person's reliable reporter is another person's propagandist shill.
I can understand the printing of these dreadful pictures, inasmuch as there is always someone ready to deny it happened when Jews suffer atrocities. That used to be antisemitic academics and all out racists. It’s now widespread on social media.
