Have there been any figures chucked around re the number of IDF personnel that have been lost in this 'special operation'.
negotiation - it can’t be with Hamas and it can’t be with Netanyahu and the far right. Hopefully post war there will be two more liberal parties on both sides who want peace. But it’s a stumbling block at the moment Gaza - obviously Israeli troops would not have entered in Sinai Peninsula, WB, Golan Heights or Gaza if Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian troops had not decided to engage in a war with Israel two state solution - we both have covered this ground before with the amount of opportunities that have been turned down historically settlements we are in agreement with tbh the original post was not aimed as a discussion point. It was aimed at outlining how many barriers and hurdles there are to creating a two state solution on both sides for those that think it’s a simple formula. That’s even before the discussion of who funds it. And safety. And land
if your reference to the “special operation” is one countries response to one of the greatest terror attacks to have ever happened since its formation, then the answer is circa 550 to date
550. Good grief. Plus god knows how many Palestinians. At the risk if going over old ground, nobody in their right mind would look to defend or justify the dreadful business of October 7. It was an act of absolute evil and barbarity. But, Israel's response is clearly doomed to fail in its two main objectives - to retrieve the hostages and destroy Hamas for ever. And, with the death toll for both sides still going up, Netanyahu's determination to continue the IDF's doomed mission is, in my view, becoming equally hard to defend or justify
Of the 550, 320 or so were in ambushes at outposts on 7th October, in Gaza it's been just over 200, which is 200 too many. I have close friends and family fighting there for weeks now and the stress each day when names are released is excruciating. I understand the sentiment and actually feel pretty similar RE the hostages, the missions to try save them in the tunnels tend to lose the most personell and it's a near impossible task- but military pressure does at least help work towards temporary ceasefire and hostage exchanges. Without going into Gaza, Israel would not have one hostage back now. We have over 100. Whilst the ideology of Hamas can't be destroyed, their ability to govern and build terrorist infrastructure can be - and to be honest is already on the brink of collapse. Too many people have lost loved ones fighting for this to give up now, those soldiers cannot die in vain. The hope then has to be that a new government (hopefully Saudi/UAE backed) who treat the Palestinians with the respect they deserve and not as collateral/human shields can help bring in a far better quality of life for people in Gaza which should help defeat the ideology. The fact is Israel is here to stay, and the belief in a violent revolution/one state solution will never help the Palestinian people. A government in Gaza who want a two-state solution will be a huge step towards peace in the region.
What would you say about the settlements in the West Bank, which are major issues in the context of any solution.
I don't like the expansion of current settlements nor the attempts to create any new ones - an ideal solution would be maintaining those close to or on the green line and compromising land elsewhere in exchange. The expansion of settlements are probably overall the area I take largest issue with the current government.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Weren't the Israeli hostages that have been released by Hamas swapped for Palestinians held by Israel? Couldn't a similar deal have been agreed without killing 20,000 civilians?
with the utmost respect IMHO this was not the time for trading innocent children taken hostage for prisoners who were imprisoned for suicide missions or caught in attempting them. The trading would not have happened without Israel’s hardline response. Any weak response would mean October 7th would be repeated on a monthly basis the whole situation, for innocent Israelis and Arabs is so pitifully sad. Only time will tell the affect on the region once Israel’s response of demolishing the network of tunnels, reducing the munition dumps and reducing the Hamas army. If it leads to a global insistence of a two state solution and safety for Israel then positives will come out of the carnage
Starmer calls for a ceasefire as Labour consider backing SNP motion in the House. Presumably hoping that people will stop yelling at his MPs in the streets and maybe underestimating the public’s ability to find something to yell about. I don’t see this as problematic though. There had already been more than enough bloodshed. The Israeli Government is unlikely to get the total victory they desire and it could be a disaster for Israel if that comes with a further humanitarian disaster.
A ceasefire and what, go back to how it was on Oct 6th? the hostages that are still alive are most likely to be in Rafah. The remaining Hamas infrastructure is likely to be in Rafah Israel will not stop until any repeat of 7/10 is impossible one question….why are people not coming onto the streets to protest Hamas? To ask where the money has gone? To ask why they use hospitals and schools as their HQs? To ask why there is no intention to create peace for “their people”.
It’s always going to return to Oct 6 in some form. Israel will still be flanked by Palestinians unhappy with their increasingly small share of the land. At some point you have to reflect upon whether the stated aims of a campaign are really achievable and what the longer term strategic cost will be. To attack Rafah means 10s of thousands more casualties on both sides and even more destruction. Like the Allies in Iraq, there isn’t really a plan for the aftermath. The Israeli Government has the vaguest of strategies because they cannot foresee where it ends. Better to consider what a ceasefire could provide for. Hostage release and a negotiation that requires exile for Hamas’s leaders would be one negotiating position. As for protests, you know the reasons why. The UK Government is not providing arms, logistics, naval and intelligence support to Hamas. Providing those things to Israel gives UK citizens the right to comment on them and the majority appear uneasy with it.
Stern Warning from Israel: If the remaining hostages held by Hamas in Gaza are not freed before Ramadan, which starts in approximately three weeks, the Israel Defense Forces campaign against the terror group will continue, including in Rafah, War Cabinet member Benny Gantz pledged on Sunday. “I say this very clearly: Hamas has a choice. They can surrender, release the hostages, and this way, the citizens of Gaza can celebrate the holy holiday of Ramadan,” Gantz told the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations at their annual gathering in Jerusalem.
you are so wide of the mark if you think ceasefire may bring about anything positive. Hamas wants nothing more than dead civilians, money coming in to line their coffers and war on Israel. And gullible people around the world can’t see that
IMO, you are wide of the mark if you believe another 10k, 20k civilian deaths in pursuit of Hamas will bring about anything positive.
it won’t. So why isn’t pressure put on Hamas to return the hostages. Only at that point can a ceasefire have any hope of happening
It is, the US, Egypt and Qatar were proposing exactly that in January. Keir Starmer said it today. But I’m not sure how you pressurise people under siege and bombardment if that isn’t doing the trick. Maybe a new approach is needed. Meanwhile hundreds are killed by settlers. Why is it you believe you can eliminate Hamas without something similar emerging, given this state of affairs?
@Moose we’ve covered this but to summarise…the tunnels are in the process of being destroyed which will stop rockets coming in and out. Hamas funding through UNWRA is coming to an end. Hamas as we know it will be destroyed. Once the hostages are home then I seriously hope that the Palestinian Arabs can go to elections without fear of reprisal and vote on what they want…to live in an ongoing war or live peacefully as per the 1.2m Arabs that live in Israel I hope funding can go to the right areas. Hospitals to cure people rather than use as military bases. Education where kids can learn history and geography rather than how to handle a gun. Creation of jobs, hope, democracy
I truly hope you are correct. A peaceful region for all, regardless of religion or nationality, is obviously the end goal that every decent person wants. But do you accept that Israel is in danger of creating a whole new generation of anti-Israel/antisemitic Palestinians that will remember the 10s of thousands of innocent lives lost, and the millions of families displaced, and seek their own "eye for an eye" revenge in the future? The cost of trying to eliminate Hamas could end up being an even more embittered and violent region if Israel "go too far", if they haven't already. As I say, I hope you are right but what comes after this war will depend a lot on what Israel does now and what they plan to do afterwards, including the funding to rebuild and create the positive environment in Palestine that you refer to.
This is bordering on delusional while the settler violence continues. You’re not considering the conflict from any wider than a Hamas bad (which they truly are) point of view.
You can’t get anything more anti Israel/Jew than Hamas. You also can’t get anything that’s more anti Palestinian Arab than Hamas. The only thing those scumbags care about is the annihilation of Israel and becoming some of the planets richest human beings. Everything else is collateral instead of funding this objective money, and more aid goes to Gaza than anywhere in the world, it should go to where it’s needed yes Israel has got to change as well. The issue of settlements and its awful leader would be the first to go to get peace in my view. But how the world or at least the moderate Arabs have not protested the Palestinian leadership is a mystery to me
not sure what more Israel can do. It’s made peace pacts with countries that tried to eradicate it, it’s turned a blind eye when thousands of rockets are fired at it, it’s moved totally out of Gaza in a move to try and gain peace that backfired massively, it’s offered a peace treaty on countless occasions to the Palestinians…as Bill Clinton who knows the region better than any said: “They said they try to put the Israelis in a position of either not defending themselves or killing innocents. They’re good at it. They’re smart. They’ve been doing this a long time.” “I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state. I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza,” Clinton said. Hamas don’t want peace on any terms. So if all of the neutrals want peace then it’s about getting rid of Hamas…
My fear is that some/many of the moderate Arabs/Palestinians, or their children, will become the extremists/terrorists of the future because of what the current Israeli government are doing today. And why do those current moderate Palestinians not stand up to Hamas today? Well I can't say for sure but I do know a bit about Northern Ireland, where most citizens were not IRA/UDA etc, but understandably fear stopped them speaking out. I hope that you are right and if Hamas are destroyed/weakened that the majority of moderates (which tends to be the case) will take control. But I really do fear that Israel may just create more terrorists and less moderates if they are not more careful now.
you may well be right. If you are then it will just lead to continuing violence and death on both sides with no future, more so for Palestinians than Israelis. If the moderates do take hold then it can lead to Gaza becoming a new Singapore (similar to how Israel did out of the desert)
I guess it comes down to me being a pessimist and you being an optimist! That's why I hope you're right!
I don’t disagree that Hamas has to go, but the question is what’s the best way. Further large scale civilian death may ultimately strengthen its hand even if it loses thousands more fighters.
This afternoon our MPs are debating a motion calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. What for? Do these self-important A-holes really think their opinion on the matter is of even the slightest interest to Netanyahu? What a joke they are. This country is crying out for a strong man from the Army to come to the fore and rescue us from these mediocre nit wits - Tory, Labour, Lib-Dem, Green, SNP, Plaid Cymru.... they're all total sh1t bags
I reckon it's all the fault of those intransigent Palestinians. Why should anyone object to such a reasonable & positive move? A real step towards trying to find a lasting peace solution. And people really think there is any real intent on the part of the Israeli state to achieve a lasting peace?
palestinian kills Israelis in a suicide attack. Israel retaliates and demolishes their family homes Palestinian kills settlers in West Bank and Israel retaliates by approving more settlements it’s all so depressing. Get rid of Netanyahu, get rid of Hamas and let two parties negotiate a peace settlement who actually want one
