You can’t simply start everything with ‘Palestinians did x.’ There have been hundreds of preceding killings on both sides. The notion ‘the other side started it’ is plunging the region towards catastrophe.
To create a nation , a large nation that will one day in the eyes of the creator , be one of the biggest most powerful nations , you need land . Then you need people , the right type of people . People who are fleeing a manufactured terror orchestrated by those who want to create a powerful nation .
One day . In the not too distant future. You will wake up one morning and what I have described will be true. And you will say "how did this happen?" .
Hopes of a ceasefire grow as plan for a temporary ceasefire to be sent to Hamas. The plans would involve a month pause with aid to be provided, bakeries reopened. There would also be a hostage/prisoner swap. This is badly needed as Gaza faces famine with some already succumbing. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68410226
And you will say to yourself 'this is not my beautiful house' And you will say to yourself 'this is not my beautiful wife' And you will say to yourself 'my god! what have I done?' and the days go by there's no automobile etc etc Same as it ever was, same as it ever was etc etc
It does, but it will take generations to undo the damage that the IDF and Netanyahu have done to Israel's standing, and they have created generations of radicalised Palestinians who will continue the sad cycle. The only way I can see a rapprochement of any sort is if the Israeli people get rid of Netanyahu and put him on trial and convict him of war crimes. Not gonna happen unfortunately.
Agreed but how does that happen without freeing the hostages and Hamas's surrender - what is the logical next step without them agreeing to these things? Hamas want civilian deaths, it's an essential part to their strategy. The palestinian people need them gone more than Israel does.
I agree with a lot of that, but if we believe that Hamas want civilian deaths why give them exactly that? October 7 was a grievous crime and the hostage taking is absolutely abominable. But when trying to resolve even the worst of crimes it isn’t usually ok to consider the people in the middle as collateral damage. I think the actions of the IDF pretty quickly made the situation worse, took the focus off Oct 7. At the moment people are starving. This has to be wrong, is a tragedy for everyone in the region, including Israelis and we don’t know to what it may lead. A ceasefire is needed for aid, but also for Israel to reconsider its strategy because it looks like annihilation to half the World. You may consider that unfair after Oct 7, but that’s how it is. Israel should explore what a ceasefire could offer in respect of hostage release and Hamas exile.
Unfortunately, the way things are panning out could be close to the aims of the October 7th atrocity from Hamas’ viewpoint. If their wildest hope of a wider attack on Israel was always extremely remote, they might now have ‘achieved’ the ‘next best thing.’
many bodies have requested proof to f what has been written. Dates, times, forensic evidence so that these horrendous events can be verified. LA Times are refusing to provide any evidence or dates personally I don’t believe anything written about the region without evidence
and what should happen with the Hamas leaders who orchestrated the beheadings, rapes, tortures of the Israelis? What should happen with the Hamas leadership who have been siphoning money away to create terror events rather than benefitting “their” people? What should happen to the Hamas leadership who are operating out of hospitals and schools?
I can assure you that their aims was not for their network of tunnels to be annihilated and their infrastructure to be demolished as it has. and Israel really doesn’t care anymore what the wider world thinks outside of US. In any other parallel universe the world would be marching against Hamas and their atrocities. The fact that this didn’t happen shows why Israel can only rely on its own (that’s Arab, Christian, Jew) to protect itself
I think this is unrealistic. How many people ever march against terrorist atrocities in any country other than their own? The vast majority of demonstrations are always against states/governments.
And usually against our own Government or allies whose actions we can influence. We don’t tend to march against the Chinese, Russian or Iranian Governments. It goes without saying when we disapprove, well unless you are a GB News presenter/viewer.
It is unrealistic to think they will all perish and even if they did, new ones or new forms of militants would emerge. The price is too high to get them all anyway. 20,000+ civilian deaths is way too high already.
But Hamas are the rulers of Gaza. if people truly care about the Arabs living in Gaza then they should be protesting where all the aid has gone to. Why Hamas took the hostages. And why Hamas are hiding in hospitals and schools but most have no interest.
who knows how many civilian deaths there have been? I certainly wouldn’t believe Hamas? And I certainly don’t believe that all women and children are innocent. But any civilian death is sad on both sides. But this is war
I agree that most have no interest which is essentially why I think it was unrealistic to expect waves of public demonstrations post October 7. I don’t think that the absence of these means that Israel was on its own as you suggest.
I've just been half listening to some twit blithering on about how Israel's war in Gaza could be driving more islamic radicalisation. I didn't get his name but I think he was a Professor of the bleeding obvious
If they can be captured/killed, all to the good. You won't hear me complaining. But not at the cost of thousands of innocent Palestinians being blown to bits. Women, children, old men and women. You complain that Hamas are hiding behind these people, but are content that going through them to get to Hamas is acceptable. On an individual level, if a Hamas terrorist was holding a 5 year old girl in front of him, would you take the shot? Taking the shot regardless is what the IDF are doing on an industrialised scale. What is deeply depressing for people like me, who have no skin in the game, and who detest religions especially medieval ones like Islam, is that people like you, who seem to be quite decent otherwise, bend over backwards to deny/condone the absolute disaster that the Israeli state is visiting on Gaza, simply because it's 'your side' by virtue of your lineage. If it were my government acting like this I'd be out marching to stop it, as indeed I was during the Gulf War. Likewise, I'd be demonstrating in protest about what Hamas did on October 7 if I were a muslim, but it seems that a football club mentality overrides common decency.
Oct 7 changed everything for me…Israel is in a fight for its own survival and anything other than an all out war with Hamas would only lead to repeated events like we experienced. The reason that all the surrounding countries and terror organisations have not invaded Israel to eradicate it is their fear of losing a war. I have been highly critical of the Netanyahu govt and their settlement programme on this thread but I see no point in negotiating with a group whose only two objectives are to make more money and destroy Israel This war could be ended now…hand the hostages back and relinquish control
@Moose - what bit? That I shouldn’t believe what a lying group of terrorists are reporting? Or that women and potentially 16-17 year old kids are also militants? I’ve consistently said that I feel so sorry for the civilians caught up in this war. On both sides
So how many genuinely innocent women and children do you think have died? And how many is too many? Your attitude is disturbing.
There’s simply no limit to the killing if you want to argue it didn’t happen and if it did they weren’t innocent anyway. It’s pretty much the same view as Hamas.
Please don’t distort what’s being said. You quoted a number…I don’t believe in any numbers that Hamas state. But, as I repeatedly said, all innocents dying in war be it the Israeli kids raped and murdered at a music festival or Arab babies dying in cross fire is very, very sad Hamas win if Israel doesn’t respond. Hamas win if they put civilians in the firing line when Israel responds. What I understand is that, with no response to retrieve the hostages and demolish the Hamas network, then there would be no Israel
There is way more going on than crossfire. I get that Oct 7 couldn’t be unanswered but other options such as diplomacy or deferred justice weren’t considered and by now there has definitely been an answer. There is no doubt that people are going without food and a disaster is taking place, becoming more grotesque with each incident. Surely at some point it’s right to ask yourself what are the consequences, if only for Israel, of taking this to its endgame?
of course…huge moral dilemma. Israel is in a lose lose situation. No country in the world would sit back post 1000+ murders in the barbaric way that happened and 200+ hostages taken no country would be diplomatic when there is a threat to its very existence but Israel lose if they don’t respond. With Hamas tactics Israel lose if they do something I said in the very early pages of this thread
Yes, it's interesting to see the US policy position changing as the Presidential election approaches. Michigan's primary last week highlighted the issue: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68420519 There's a good chunk of previously reliable Democrat voters who say they're intending to abstain in November, even if it leads to Trump winning, because they don't feel Biden's doing enough for the Palestinians. Some are insistent their position is fixed but there's probably enough wavering people he can hope to win back. He can't afford to lose states like Michigan, hence the policy shift.
How much longer can this go on. I am so angry. If Israelis don't rise up and condemn these barbaric murdering ****s, they don't deserve to be able to sleep peacefully in their beds. If this was my father/brother, and these bastards didn't end up in the Hague, then the rest of my life would be dedicated to seeking vengeance. And this is one of thousands. Israel is ****ed. https://twitter.com/stuzi_pants/status/1766428653221491149
