Team Firesale - Pozzo Out Vs Team Resigned Happy Clap

i think 'team sitting on fence' but I think you see that as a negative, (I may well be wrong) i see it as a positive. I would call it ' Team patient' Lets wait and give Ivic time to form a strong united team with players who want to play for us, and then assess how they do from then.

 

Not me. I’m Team Andre Gray.

Those missing players have been boiling everyone’s piss for just a few months - Gray’s been doing it for years and that’s the kinda commitment I’m looking for.

 

My view is that Gino has made several serious errors over the years that have led to us being in the situation we are in. The profile of player brought in and the merry-go-round of Head Coaches have resulted in a toxic atmosphere that appears whenever results don't go our way for any sustained period of time. Namely the Walter era, the end of Gracia and the entire relegation season.

The positives that Gino and Scott have brought to the club, imo, far exceed the negatives however. They've rejuvenated the stadium, given us I'd say 5/6 very successful seasons out of 8 including a play-off final, a promotion, a cup semi-final, a cup final, our highest league finish since the 80s and some of the best players and moments I've experienced as a fan. All whilst maintaining our image as a family club off the pitch with our community work, GT statue, work with the NHS and renaming of stands. They've also made a couple of small mistakes in that area that I disagree with such as the dodgy betting companies sponsoring our shirts but I suppose that's just the world of football nowadays.

I'm hoping this season will be a continuation of the positives sides listed above, with more special moments to come, whilst also working to change the culture in the dressing room. I think they've made a good start by seemingly giving Ivic the power to remove players who don't want to be here from the squad. This means nothing however if those players aren't adequately replaced. I think we're in a tough spot financially and I can see why we are wanting to move on some of our saleable assests and securing our long-term future before making big investments in the team, although it does put us at a disadvantage on the pitch until the window shuts. I also think it's a step in the right direction for the Head Coach to be more involved in player recruitment, which I hope is the plan.

 

Let's wait and see what we're left with when this ludicrously timed transfer window closes. At this stage flogging Doucore and Estupian doesn't (in my view) constitute a fire sale. That said, the incoming business has been distinctly underwhelming

 

Team Bedwetter. Get it right you happy clapping clown.

 

Well, apart from the Politics Forum Only Army. They're anyone's after a few divisions.

 

To me it's clear. I used to think Pozzo walked on water and could do no wrong. Those days are gone now. The more I see what's going on, the more despondent and cheated I feel by it.

It can be reversed and if they show some ambition in this window, by keeping a few of the stars and replacing those that go with quality, that's fine, I can get on board with that.

But all I'm seeing is every asset linked with moves away, good players being undersold, and total donkeys or cheap punts being signed as replacements.

Unfortunately I'm in the first group, but it's a reluctant placement. I don't want to be in the first group, but I never sit quiet if I feel things are not going in the right direction, or if I feel we, as fans, are being totally hoodwinked.

 

They should also have backed him with a 2 or 3 year contract even though I agree with what you have posted. A 1 year contract still sends out the signal that if things get tough the players will still come out on top regardless of performance.

 

I find the options a bit confusing and not sure what the Fessi options denotes.

It’s a very interesting poll to try and get to the bottom of the schism but I wonder if a binary option of for or against the Pozzos might have been clearer or if absolutely necessary happy clappers vs bedwetters (although I personally find these terms tedious).

 

Agreed, we've been left with a load of duffers who for various reasons clubs aren't willing to pay big bucks for (unlike Bournemouth who seemed to have no issue getting their assets off the books, and can therefore keep Brooks-can we keep Sarr?). They are a mass of contradictions, initially they brought in some really great lads who identified with us, only for us to lose our way in the Premier League. We have done some great things in the community, only to also spend a lot of time battling clubs over technicalities, and treating players who will never play for us as commodities. I was initially confident about this season, and we still may yet do well, we have a good manager and the potential for a great squad in the Championship, but if a few things don't go our way this window, we're ****ed

 

I'm actually in a 5th camp. I don't really blame them for what is going on now (although the nonsense about promotion I could do without). I do blame them for the 2 years of dreadful stewardship that got us into this position. Poor recruitment, toxic model and woeful financial management.

I put camp 1, but in reality the firesale and the fact many of the players are of poor character is just a symptom of their previous errors and business model.

 

Pozzo era has brought around far more positives than negatives and so I will remain pro Pozzo, doesn't mean I believe they have done everything correctly.

One area of interest coming out of today for me, Liverpool have just bought Thiago for the same (maybe less even) than Everton paid us for Doucoure. And that guy has just won the champions league. I don't feel, based on most recent performances and the financial situation in the world of football right now that we undersold.

 

Quick (genuine) question - would Gino and co have to drive us to the brink like Bassini did for those who are ‘Team Gino’ to turn?

If not, what would be things that would sway you into thinking he/they may not be best for the club anymore?

 

Is Olly Watkins better than Tiago Alcantara then?

 

It is, however, the best option.

 

King of the fence sitters here. I like comments on both sides of the debate, and I decide which side I am on by which posts are making me laugh more.

It has been a crap window for us so far, but that is to be expected. The Pozzos have given us some fantastic memories, but also showed some awful foresight in refusing to invest in key areas.

So I’ll reserve judgement until the window SLAMS shut. And if we’re still ****, I’ll just support Man United until we improve.

 

The major issue is after admitting some mistakes and saying things would be different they aren't.
They have,at least,lost some trust and have to earn it back.They won't do that by blaming the players and telling Vlad to manage with one hand tied behind his back.

 

I'm close to coming to that conclusion now. It really all depends on how this window goes. If it goes the way I think it will, i.e we sell all assets and replace them with crap, then it will be clear what the intentions of the owner is. We would have been lied to and there's no coming back from that. They sold us a statement of ambition at the end of last season. It looks like they will do the opposite, hope no one notices and that 1881 will still raise a Gino flag when we're all allowed back in.

That said, I can't speak highly enough of how they've run the club until the last 18 months, then it's all changed and has been a disaster. Not sure what the cause is, but maybe Papa Pozzo was making all the fundamental decisions before, and 18 months ago he told Gino it's all his. I'm just guessing, but it would certainly help to explain all the mistakes and why they have been so poor over the past year and a half.

Now, maybe, it's run its course and it's time to go. I'm not at the stage to actively call for the owner to go, a lot more negative things have to happen before I get to that point, but if they came out and said they're selling up, I wont be as gutted as I would have been 18 months ago for sure.

 

I don't think that's necessarily true. All the 1 year contract indicates is that the owners don't want to end up paying a ton of compensation in the event of needing to replace a head coach, as happened with Gracia. Ivic is ultimately unproven in England and there's no guarantee he'll work out.

The length of the head coach's contract is immaterial when it comes to whether or not players rule the roost. If the club backs Ivic's calls and doesn't tolerate players stepping out of line, his contract could be a 1 week rolling contract and he'd still be calling the shots.

Similarly, he could sign a 7 year deal and it wouldn't matter if the club capitulates to the players at the first sign of trouble. The players downed tools under Gracia and his long contract didn't save him.

 

I think they have developed the club in ways we never thought possible. Outstanding facilities, 5 years in the PL, 4 sides on the stadium and a fair few fantastic players.

However... I think failure to get promoted would also be considered a failure of their plan. Udinese flirting with relegation, Watford relegated... meanwhile ex-Pozzo Granada win a European place. They have provided a fantastic platform, but now we're selling half of that platform and failure to win promotion would see us lose all of it (Joao Pedro and co). Will they accept that?

I wouldn't mind if they stuck around forever, but I think they will fall on their sword and sell before they are hounded out.

 

BBC/The Athletic reporting Sarr will be a Liverpool player within 48 hours. And for not much money.
I suspect the departure of our lodestar may switch a few votes on here.
It hasn't actually happened yet, of course.
Certainly saddens me (more than it surprises me). He is, of course, made for Liverpool, in the type of player he is.

 

and right in the middle of the ramping up of Sarr rumours, the club put a clip of Sarr in training up. I've not laid into the board at all (online at least), but if he is off, then this does feel clumsy at best.

 

I'm on the fence. Prepared to give the Pozzos time, but if this isn't all sorted by 5pm then I might change my mind

 

I think they genuinely sound do a Bas and still get some faith. Remember, right until the death, there were plenty on here who refused to hear a bad word said about Lionel. They thought it was all innuendo, rumour and hearsay until it was documented and published. Some people refuse to see past the ends of their noses.

What is happening at our club now and what has happened over the past 18 months has been an utter disgrace. Any sensible fan base would at least be up in arms about it, even if there was little more that they could do in the face of impassive owners who don't care a jot what we think. Watford fans make it all the more sweet, allowing our owners to stuff up our club, whilst lauding them for doing so. Not only does Gino get to scuttle our ship on the rocks of bad management, he gets his ego stroked whilst he's doing it.

 

If you judge the Pozzos as owners by their tenure with us as a whole, then obviously it's greatly in the positive - other posters have already listed all the good things that have happened in the last 8 years (although it's a slightly shameful reflection on us and the state we were in but never should have been that one of them is 'having a stadium with all 4 sides').

If you judge them in a linear chronological fashion though, then you'd have to conclude that they were very good owners for the first 4 to 6 years, but based on the past 2 years or so, they are actually now quite bad owners - almost every single decision they have made, or indeed refused to make, has been a poorly-thought out negative.

The only real question is whether they can reverse that again, and become good owners. At the moment, they are bad.

We owe them a great deal, in as much as we cannot turn up our noses and forget the situation we were in before they bought us, but that is in reality purely sentiment, and out of a collective sense of personal graciousness- they did not buy us as a charitable act, and they weren't doing us a favour when they did so; they were making a business decision.

We are both a business and a football club; right now they are failing at both senses, and have been for some time. Whether we have this firesale or not (and it's looking increasingly likely that we will, to at least the kind of degree that will seriously affect our ability to challenge for immediate promotion back to the Prem, as it stands) it will only be replacing some of the money we have instantly lost by dropping out of the richest league in the world, at the worst possible time economically.

If the window ends as some of the signs seem to indicate at this moment, with all our decisive players gone and substandard/unimpressive replacements brought in, then we would also have to ask what it is the Pozzos are trying to get out of owning the club.

If we accept that they thought, incorrectly, that they could skate by with what they had and survive, that is something many of us might have disagreed with even at the time, but it is still an understandable position. What would not be understandable would be if, after all that, and the Pozzi being utterly disabused of that notion in the most harsh and costly way possible, they continue to recruit poorly and attempt to skate by without the proper tools and leave their Head Coach high and dry this window. We can't possibly be expected to believe that they, in good faith, believe that we would be able to challenge, as they have publicly stated is their aim, for promotion. It's then, when the window is closed, that we can draw full conclusions, and possibly find it very hard to come away with any idea other than that they are angling for something other than what they have always loudly proclaimed was their overarching goal: success with the team in the top division.

We can't know for sure until then, but right now the signs aren't incredibly positive. I suppose that's the madness of the transfer window, though; everything can change in a heartbeat. Whether that will be for the better or the worse is yet to be decided, but I think it would be extremely churlish to blame anyone at this point for reading the runes and coming up doubtful.

 

Never let it be said that you're not a reasonable man, sir!

 

Do you have a link for this?

 

I see Ivic is parroting the 'want players who want to be here' line again. Must have Dominic Cummings in charge of our communications.

Shame we didn't mind players who didn't want to be here when we were in the PL.

 

What nonsense about promotion?

 

Just checked the Athletic site and there's no article up under Watford regarding Sarr, so presumably from somewhere else.

 

Gino s made some mistakes but always in trying to improve the club within its financial restrictions, at least thats the impression I get .

They re the second most successful owners of the club in our 140 year history and gave us 5 years in top flight , our previous record being 6 under Elton and GT.

I wish we d done a Leicester or Wolves and established ourselves as top 8 team, and that was within our reach at one point , but we failed , at least this time around .

I don’t see that as a reason to sack the owners though .

The only other medium sized clubs that have outperformed is in this era are Palace and Burnley and Id take supporting this team over their teams and ownership structure , even in the division below.

 

Transferred to team fire-sale last Friday at 7pm. Decent signing on fee. We're gonna win the league!

Think the Pozzo's were amazing for us in the first few years. Only downside was scrapping Harefield- this was justified because of EPPP or whatever it's called.

Think they made some mistakes when we got promoted. Underestimating some of the players that got us up. Vydra, Angella's etc could have done a job. Think we were fortunate that Ighalo was on the form of his life and Deeney could still run.

It wasn't relegation that changed my mind. It's the willingness to cave to player-power and the blatant lies about aiming for promotion this season, that has done it for me.

If we sell Sarr, it will take alot for them to win me around again.