Grenfell Tower Block Fire

Chap on radio just now who sells this and other types of cladding. The line from the management company was that the refurbishment was to improve thermal efficiency. Sales guy says that the insulation properties for this type of cladding are minimal, and that properly thermal (and fireproof) cladding costs three times as much, and that this type is used purely for cosmetic reasons.

Which leads to the suspicion that the refurb was carried out to improve the views of their posher neighbours to the south.

 

Really. On this thread?

Keep it civil people.

 

Sure it was. To one who resorts to arrogant condescension and calls me Son. Try that face to face ...

I've had the luxury over the last 30 hours to listen to much of the news coverage on various channels. Maybe you and Lizard haven't. I also welcome Lizard's expert opinion expressed at length just after he chose to get personal with me. Pity on the timing there. His long post makes excellent reading and is entirely logical and easy for the layman to understand. However there are also some facts which are immediately apparent in this case:

1. The residents have been critical for years about the group the Local Authority ceded the management of social housing (including Grenfell Tower) to in Kensington and Chelsea. Including criticisms of the potential fire risk (in writing). They've suggested that the refurbishment was largely cosmetic to make the block look 'prettier'. Evidence is now emerging that the particular cladding used was at the lower end of the thermal insulation spectrum and at the higher end of the fire risk spectrum i.e. the cheap stuff.

2. The eyewitness evidence was that the fire spread very rapidly up the exterior of the building (through the cladding) and was then seen to migrate horizontally from exterior to interior at a number of levels. Something that Lizard has suggested shouldn't happen because the cladding is only superficial and its dramatic burning shouldn't have been able to migrate to the interior/core of the building.

3. None of the half dozen or so experts I've seen on various channels have alluded to the superficiality of a cladding fire at all. They've all considered it to be perfectly feasible as an agent responsible for spreading a fire and expanding a relatively small one into a conflagration.

So mixed messages then. I'm not a fire safety expert but I can understand plain english.

If Mr Lizard can keep a civil tongue in his head then I and the rest of us will no doubt welcome his further expert contributions.

 

Just read this:

The fire affected all floors of the building, from the second floor up,

Firefighters worked with the gas authority to isolate a ruptured gas main in the block.

Once it was completed, they were able to extinguish the fire with the help of a 40 metre aerial appliance.

 

Somebody who called LBC yesterday stated that gas pipes had been installed in the corridor recently. I think that on new build flats the pipework has to run up the outside of the building and enter each flat directly. It cannot run in corridors as was the case on a job a couple of years ago. If holes between floors and flats/corridors were not correctly sealed after the pipes were installed then the 'defend in place' strategy would be severely compromised.

 

That doesn't ring true with the report from Inside Housing (on BBC news last night) of a year ago that central heating was renewed last year including taking up flooring to run new pipe work, and the case study on Rydon's website that the Decent Homes programme included central heating replacement.

The alternative is they had a new communal heating system installed recently

 

Some of our stupid MPs need to wind their necks in, angry accusations of corporate manslaughter are sensationalist idiocy, they should know better and it smacks of extremely distasteful point scoring

Let the professionals investigate properly, tell us what happened, then go after the culprits to the fullest extent of the law armed with some facts

 

If the authorities don't get a grip soon there will be a riot. Hot summer evenings, an angry community, silence or inadequacy from the local authorities...we've been here before.

 

I think that would have been this disaster.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joelma_Building in Sao Paulo in 1974.
180 odd fatalities with 40 jumping to their deaths. It remains the highest number of victims from a high rise fire if you disregard 9/11. Looking at clips on YT and photo's on Google of this incident, they now look shockingly familiar.


NB I hate to sound trivial, but reading this got me thinking if the film Towering Inferno had been influence at all by what happened in Sao Paulo.. bearing in mind it was released later the same year. Apparently though it was based on an earlier novel. In another grisly coincidence, Grenfell Tower was also opened in 1974.

 

Not trivial at all. I remember when my dad's very elderly mum and dad moved into their retirement flat on the 2nd floor in a block right next door to Hendon Ex-Servicemen's Club. I especially recollect my dad telling a very young me what the "LFB: Dry Riser" signs meant - he explained "Remember the Towering Inferno...", it had just premiered on TV so it was in'76 or '77. "...they're here so that can't happen here..."

 

In most respects you are correct. That is the fair and sensible way. The way in which the rule of law prevails and we learn from catastrophe.

But I'm afraid it won't hold, because the problems here are so evident and many other people, living in similar blocks appear in immediate peril. Authority needs to be sufficiently anxious that it finds an immediate response.

Moreover this event has set off an earthquake of discontents with austerity, from the general difficulty in providing and maintaining low cost housing amid a goldrush of luxury speculation, to fed up fireman bemoaning their depletion in numbers and equipment and the inadequate response to previous disaster. The mood is angry and there is also a sense of national shame. This is an incalculable disaster, of lives, property, environment and public image. The whole world is looking on at us as brutish, divided and incompetent and it is almost impossible to conceive that there were no failures on the way to this ignominy.

 

WTF is wrong with you? That's not how we do things in the e-Witch Hunt age.

 

A community has been ripped apart and it's likely that the number of dead will go into the hundreds. So far everything that's come out suggests that had more care been applied and the residents had been listened to (instead of threatened with legal action) this could have all been avoided. The latest word is that recently installed gas pipes in the lobbies and stairwell had not been correctly boxed with fire retardant material despite residents who complained being assured that they would be.

Surely you can understand why people are angry?

 

"Moreover this event has set off an earthquake of discontents with austerity, from the general difficulty in providing and maintaining low cost housing amid a goldrush of luxury speculation, to fed up fireman bemoaning their depletion in numbers and equipment and the inadequate response to previous disaster. The mood is angry and there is also a sense of national shame. This is an incalculable disaster, of lives, property, environment and public image. The whole world is looking on at us as brutish, divided and incompetent and it is almost impossible to conceive that there were no failures on the way to this ignominy."

It took Moose until his second post after the Manchester bomb to get political, his first post after the Borough Market stabbings, and again his first post after this tragedy. He can't wait until the causes, etc are known. It is sick.

Give it a rest, Moose, you seem to relish the tragic opportunities to score political points.

 

Blimey i thought they were looking on with some sympathy.. no?
I saw the Russian and Chinese newspapers were drawing parallels with similar disasters in their own countries.. and asking if lessons had been learned.
But other than that i'm not sure where you are coming from?

 

Come on ZZ, not on this thread. Sometimes you do yourself no favours. Save it for the politics forum. Moose, just let this one pass.

 

Too late........

 

Fair enough, edited. We could take it to the politics forum. It's going to be very hard to keep politics out of any future debate.

I do not relish the blame being laid at the door of one or two individuals. These issues are wider. It is, however, already incredibly difficult to conceive of a set of circumstances arising from the explanation that will leave the public not feeling angry about how this has happened.

 

Felt the same myself when i saw her earlier making out she knows the true death toll and how it must be a cover up. That after we've been told they cant make a true assessment of numbers dead cause they cant get to all parts of the building, also the nature of the remains.. and to make an announcement now would be irresponsible.

Still.. pop stars know best!

 

?????????

 

I imagine that the investigation will find a series of serious errors made over a period of time by numerous companies and individuals. They will want to know whether the fire doors were in place and used as intended. Was the integrity if the fire compartments intact? Was fire resisting material removed during refurbishment and was it replaced with an equally protective modern material? What was were the window frame made from and why did they fail so easily? Has adding the cladding negated the fire resisting property's of the block by enabling the spread?

Was gas installed correctly and were any holes sealed where it goes between floors and enters flats?
There have been a few fuse box fires caused by loose connections recently. Plastic ones have proven to ignight. They are often covered by flammable items in small cupboards. This could well have started a fire. The investigators will also want to be sure that tenants haven't made alterations that affect the fire integrity.

Watching the news last night, it seems that this has happen in cladded buildings in other countries.

I think that fire alarms in communal areas and sprinkler systems will become a legal requirement in these buildings and the sit and defend policy will change.

 

Not really. I thought she was spot on. Better than 'business as usual' anyway which will involve playing for time, endless buck-passing and a hefty boot into the long grass unless there are criminal proceedings.

Quite like her music too ...

 

If you think I'm jumping the gun have you seen the papers today, heard the politicians, seen news of the Police criminal enquiry?

I was saying the position to enquire and learn would not hold. Your reaction was OTT.

 

Unfortunately this is about as political as it gets. If true that refurb prioritised removing eyesore for wealthy neighbours over safety of poor and vulnerable, this is the essence of right vs left.

 

The works are all part of the Decent Homes programme (internally - kitchens, bathrooms, central heating, re-wire; externally - window replacement, concrete repair, cavity wall insulation or over-cladding) and have been done across numerous Boroughs across the country regardless of who the overlooking neighbours are. The Decent Homes standards were introduced in the late 90s by Labour as opposed to knocking down estates and rebuilding.

However, this may well come down to Principal Designer or Principal Contractor negligence. Until the investigations are complete, as Liz stated earlier it's all speculation

 

Probably best to resolve the "If" in your sentence first. Otherwise we are just guessing. We should establish facts first before some on here get to gleefully smash the Tories for it.

 

I'm sorry but I think this whole angle is nonsense. It might be a perception held by some but much more likely is they were trying to improve the look of the block for the benefit of those who actually live there.

 

This is too general as description. Could you please be more specific as this appears to apply to about 90% of Public Schools.

 

Yes, you would think and also secondary to the matter of insulating the building. However council papers note the appearance of the block 'from the conservation area' as an issue and that's where this emanates from.

I don't believe/hope this was really a factor. Like you say, you might improve its appearance just for the residents. It will come out in the scrutiny of how the decision on the cladding was made.

 

I see protests are now planned tonight and through the weekend, could easily spiral out of control.

 

Horrific tragedy, passing the building this morning by train On the way to work really brings it home and immediate and far-reaching action will be required after this awful event, and of course proper justice where it is deserved. Metro 'Arrest the Killers' headline in my view is totally irresponsible and at a time when emotions are riding really high.