Grenfell Tower Block Fire

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Diamond, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Tragic. I fear there are going to be hundreds dead, it looks horrific.
     
  2. Prentice

    Prentice Administrator

  3. Harrow Orn

    Harrow Orn Squad Player

    Horrific.

    Could see the smoke from Kilburn as my train was passing through. Astonishes me that a block of flats in this day and age can go up in flames like that.
     
  4. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire

    Safety concerns[edit]
    There were significant safety concerns prior to the fire, with criticism leveled against the Kensington and Chelsea London Borough Council for fire safety and building maintenance. A residents organisation, Grenfell Action Group, published a blog in which it highlighted major safety problems. In 2013, the group published a 2012 risk assessment that revealed firefighting equipment at the tower not been checked for up to four years. Fire extinguishers on site were expired, and some had "condemned" written on them in large black letters.[8]

    In a July 2014 Grenfell Tower regeneration newsletter, the KCTMO instructed residents to stay in the flat in case of a fire:[9]

    Emergency fire arrangements
    Our longstanding 'stay put' policy stays in force until you are told otherwise. This means that (unless there is a fire in your flat or in the hallway outside your flat) you should stay inside your flat. This is because Grenfell was designed according to rigorous fire safety standards. Also, the new front doors for each flat can withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes, which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive.

    In November 2016, Grenfell Action Group published online an article attacking KCTMO as an "evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia" and accusing the Borough Council of ignoring health and safety laws. The Group suggested that "only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of [KCTMO]". The group had also published articles criticising fire safety and maintenance practices at Grenfell Tower.[10][11]

    Immediately following the fire, it was being debated whether the cladding had somehow contributed to the disaster.[1]
     
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  5. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    I was reading about the cladding, one thought springs to mind, have the council effectively made a massive candle?
     
  6. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

  7. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    It strikes me that this is just the sort of catastrophe that is rightly roundly criticised when it happens in the third world. Profit before people.

    Now it would seem that parts of our capital city are also part of the third world.
     
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  8. another_mrlizard

    another_mrlizard Squad Player

    No.
     
  9. With A Smile

    With A Smile First Team

    Horrendous, driving over Dunstable downs this morning you could see the line of smoke.

    I fear that they will never really know how many people have died.
     
  10. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    So long as the building structure remains intact and upright I'm sure they will.
     
  11. rochdale away

    rochdale away Reservist

    I notice corbyn couldn't wait to have a dig at local authority cuts. He may be right, but perhaps leave the finger pointing for a bit?

    Yet again terrible images to wake up to, you can barely imagine the horror the people involved have been through. Glad to hear the fire/police/NHS staff being correctly praised again.
     
  12. J.B

    J.B First Team

    He responded to specific questions on the issue and in doing so he actually repeatedly said that those questions can wait until tomorrow. What else would you have had him do?

    Quite reserved really given that an untold amount of people have died in an incident that possibly could have been prevented had the constant warnings from residents been listened to by those in power.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
  13. Stevohorn

    Stevohorn Watching Grass Grow

    Same with the general public. Saw loads of political statements and blame apportioning on social media, even before the fire was out or the number of victims known.

    Modern world but it grates sometimes.
     
  14. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Thought he answered quite well my-self:

    Asked if he was saying people in power failed to act, he replied: "I’m not making that statement yet. Today is the day to support the emergency services and the residents.

    "Tomorrow is the time to ask all those questions but today let’s concentrate on dealing with the consequences of this fire and try and bring comfort and safety and save life wherever it can be saved."
     
  15. rochdale away

    rochdale away Reservist

    I was going to post his answer from the BBC site but feel this is the wrong thread to argue politics......................Please everyone accept my apologies for bringing corbyn into this thread
     
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  16. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Absolutely horrifying images. I lived in a tower block at Uni so it's not difficult for me to envision what that must have been like inside. Any less than dozens dead will be incredible considering the time the fire started at.
     
  17. RossConnor7

    RossConnor7 Academy Graduate

    My dad lives on the same estate, I drove passed the tower last week. My cousins live in the tower block over the other side of the road. Absolutely horrifying and devastating for the community.
     
  18. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Listening to a fire chief on LBC on the way home tonight it seems that the single stairway was compromised by the fire meaning people couldn't escape down it and firefighters had difficulty rescuing people and fighting the fire from within. It should have lasted for at least an hour allowing people to escape, it didn't get close.

    I've not been able to leave this all day, just bl**dy awful.
     
  19. another_mrlizard

    another_mrlizard Squad Player

    That isn't what it means. The fire rating of the enclosure assumes that the doors leading onto it are kept shut for the duration.

    Obviously, if people open the doors, if they are propped open, or if they are faulty, then the rating is compromised and the stairwell will fill with smoke and become impassable.

    This is why people are expected to stay put in the event of a fire, so that the fire brigade can enter the stairwell and control it during an evacuation. The practicalities of this are another matter of course, but that's the reason.
     
  20. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse First Team Captain

    I work in the housing sector and this feels very close to home. There is going to be a massive stewards enquiry into this and heads may well roll.

    All my thoughts are with those affected. Such sad news.
     
  21. If reports of cost cutting and the management company ignoring tenant's warnings prove well-founded, then a lot of people will be shitting themselves about manslaughter charges.
     
  22. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    From the initial comments of fire safety experts the answer might be yes.
     
  23. another_mrlizard

    another_mrlizard Squad Player

    No they aren't and don't make assumptions about who are the fire safety experts round these parts.
     
  24. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Just watching the BBC News at Ten and find some of the coverage very distasteful and voyeuristic. I understand that it's important to tell the story of the people affected as it brings the horror home but I can't understand the need for some of the questions from Mark Easton to clearly distressed people. Let them tell their story but if they start to break down in tears, leave them alone rather than trying to desperately get more morbid information out of them.
     
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  25. heart breaking scenes on top of Manchester and London, someone someplace broke a mighty large mirror
     
  26. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    OK thanks for clearing that up.

    Do you know how the flats themselves seemed to catch fire enabling the flames to spread upwards? I was thinking that maybe it's not concrete between the floors but it must be in a tower block? So does that mean it's spread from the outside?
     
  27. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    So sad, very close to my office. As often happens, with the sadness, my heart is always warmed by the way humanity responds to such disasters. Open arms, clothing, aids, hotels, Twitter has been amazing.

    This was lovely to see also - https://twitter.com/AHudhayfah/status/874981214138093568

    RIP to those who lost their lives.
     
  28. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Yes they are. Plenty of them. Not just the residents or general public. No assumptions at all. They've been wheeled on for comment specifically because that's what they are. And the use of flammable cladding and that the fire spread rapidly up the exterior of the building rather than internally were mentioned on numerous occasions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  29. another_mrlizard

    another_mrlizard Squad Player

    Sorry, I really don't have time to or inclination to explain how fire works, how buildings are cladded, the materials used, how they react to extreme temperatures, or indeed how candles work and so on, to one so hard of understanding. If you think that's what's being said, then you crack on Son, it's your life, live it how you want.
     
  30. another_mrlizard

    another_mrlizard Squad Player

    No, I'd be guessing, same as everyone else is at this stage.

    All I can really say is that any fire in such an environment should be contained within a dwelling, if it starts in a flat kitchen, or if someone drops a cigarette on their bed and nods off for instance. or within a section of corridor broken up by fire doors if it started outside a flat. Usually, there wouldn't be a great deal of flammable material on a corridor and the walls and floors would be constructed of materials that don't sustain a fire. You're right, the building would almost certainly be constructed of steel and concrete.

    For the fire to spread so quickly, temperatures must have been far in excess of those you'd normally expect to occur in the event of a small fire in a flat, or on a corridor. I suspect that something that was stored in the area that the fire started, acted as an accelerant and somehow sustained the fire for a long duration. A sustained gas leak I suppose might fit, but that's just guesswork. At the end of the day, everything will burn if the temperature is high enough, that's not really the issue as regards why people were trapped inside the building so quickly and why so many died.

    As regards this cladding business, the insulation would eventually burn, but is contained within fire-resistant metalwork and again, for that to actually catch fire the temperatures would have to be extreme and sustained for a long period. Mostly, the cladding would simply fall off and it would look dramatic, but wouldn't in of itself be a great concern to the occupants inside the building, who by that stage should have been able to evacuate in a less catastrophic fire event.

    It's still worth remembering that, while the fire looks spectacular and horrific, the casualties are caused by the smoke and why this entered the escape stairwell to the extent that it seems to have is the reason why there were so many fatalities and serious injuries. These would (or at least should) have taken place long before the fire reached any of the occupants. The real question is how did the fire reach such a scale that smoke was able to penetrate the protected escape route and what sustained it for so long?
     
  31. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    There was a chap on LBC this morning claiming that the block went from electricity to gas in the last 2 weeks. It's been confirmed.
     
  32. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    **** off you arrogant piece of piss. I'm simply drawing attention to what fire experts on various TV channels have been saying and eyewitness reports. Probably those with more fire expert letters after their name than you I'd hazard otherwise you might have been called up for comment instead.

    If you're our resident expert then I'd advise you to be a bit more forthcoming or maybe we'll all conclude that maybe you're not so much of an expert after all.

    Oh you have been forthcoming above I see. However, your comments still seem to be at odds with what the experts on the TV are saying which pay far more attention to the role of the cladding. I am simply reporting what your colleagues are saying. And the role of the cladding was also implicated in the Dubai Tower fire. Hardly a tower full of poor people there though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  33. And also in Melbourne. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...e-high-rise-blaze-also-used-in-grenfell-tower
    And France.


    This is pretty clear cut. Flammable material in cladding exacerbated by a chimney effect of gaps between the cladding and concrete.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  34. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    That's (bold bit) something that's been repeated by quite a few LFB people and other experts.

    Regards the "gas leak" - wouldn't this have caused some sort of explosion - or was the supply automatically shut off?

    EDIT: A really unsettling thing is during the compulsory fire marshal refresher training we have to do they always show a clip of Bradford (with a stopwatch) and a fire in a tower block (Brazil?) replete with (lots of) people jumping to their deaths to escape the flames as I don't remember where it actually was shows how little notice I take of it as "It could never happen here so why bother watching fully...".

    @another_mrlizard are you with BRE/FIRTO/FRS/whatever as the guys and girls I meet from this place at conferences/training events are always a mine of interesting/frightening anecdotes?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  35. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    Why do we have to keep seeing helicopter shots of the gutted tower? We all know what it looks like by now.

    Continuing to show it only piles on the agony for those that are now reluctantly coming to the conclusion that they've lost their loved ones and friends.
     
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