Grenfell Tower Block Fire

As UEA says, warm Summer nights and angry mobs tend to lead one way, and that's rioting.

 

They've been ignored for years, are still being ignored by some politicians and are now homeless and have likely lost friends/family members over the last couple of days.

They're extremely angry and upset and probably aren't thinking rationally. I can't say I blame them.

 

Same old same old then. The way something immediate helps is to signal - enough bulls.it.

 

The problem is we have already been there, had the deaths, had the inquiry, had the recommendations and here we are again.

There was a buildings expert on TV the other day as cross as I've ever seen an expert on TV news, dismayed that this panelling was still being used.

 

I honestly don't know what to say anymore about The Scum....(not Lootown)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital

 

Unfortunately that sort of thing is common practice from that pond life rather than a one off. This thread posted on Twitter after the Manchester bombing is a scary read

https://twitter.com/DrEm_79/status/866948006498717697

Absolutely revolting.

 

That £4k extra on the materials bill (for the entire tower) for vastly more fire-retardant (on LBC and R4) cladding is sickening.

 

Was he the surveyor who said he'd begged people to listen at a conference about this stuff and they basically laughed him away?

Shocking.

 

Does anyone have a link for this? I need to see this.

 

That is just sickening

 

The newly elected LABOUR MP for Kensington was a member of the labour controlled council that signed off on the £10 million that was spent on the block recently, so why did she sign off on the "allegedly unsafe" cladding, along with the many other labour cotrolled councils across the country that have also used these same cladding tiles?

If Teresea May is to blame in some way, surely these councils are even more to blame as they have the final say on how money within their council is spent!

 

Link?

The only reason I ask is that according to everywhere K&C has been a Conservative controlled council since 1964.

 

Do some basic research and you might have a point. Kensington has been controlled by the Tories since 1964.

Aside from this you are probably correct. Labour councils have been delivering austerity for seven years. Councils have no other choice, but sadly many of the New Labourites are willing to enact those policies in the same way as their Tory counterparts. I would not seek to excuse them in any way for bad decisions they make.

This is why the New Labour Blairites need banishing. Of course given a choice of voting for a mildly socialist Labour Party we know what you did.

 

By all means, whilst it wont solve anything, they pretty much have the countries blessing to be livid.

What annoys me is that so many people are jumping on this, to fit their own ideology.

The politicians started with the rhetoric just hours after the fire, linking it with one policy or another. Minor celebrities are trying to do the police's job for them, as they think they are better suited.

When the inquiry is published, all those at fault need to be held to the strongest account.

 

58 is the number presumed dead based on reports to the police. They've located 30 of them and, of those, they've removed 16.

 

What are they supposed to do if they haven't got any money?

 

According to reports as little as £5K would have paid for the "Fire Resistant" type of cladding! Are you trying to tell me they could not afford that, even if it is true that there have been government cuts?

 

I have to admit I did not check the source, and I may have been a victim of fake news, but what is true is that she was a member of that council, whichever party cotrolled it at the time.

 

It's a result of putting the contract out to tender, then the main contractor subcontracting out to tender, everybody trying to undercut everyone else - and inadequate regulation.

Glad to see you are enjoying the quiz!

 

There are potentially another 20 such high rises in London using the same cladding and obviously many more throughout the country, most of which will have been built under various administrations over 50 years or so.

So we have an enquiry which will get to the bottom of why the decisions were made and what action is necessary in the short and medium terms. What is clear, is that these demands for immediate answers are ridiculous.

There are valid questions from the survivors, those directly affected by the disaster, who need short term assistance and somewhere to live until they can be re-housed properly - they need to know what is happening asap and the local authority needs to get things moving with central government support.

But then there are the "questions" raised by those that just see this as an excuse to protest against the government or establishment. Those marching with neatly manufactured "Justice for Grenfell" placards, that last week were carrying neatly manufactured placards saying something completely different, the popstars with failing careers keen to get back on the telly, or those that jump to political assumptions to further their cause, calling for resignations, sackings already. They merely look as tragedy as an opportunity to create division and unrest. These tragic incidents are like manna from heaven for them.

 

Do you get your information from the comments section of the Daily Mail?
Leader
Nick Paget-Brown, Conservative
Since 6 May 2013
Mayor
Maighread Condon-Simmonds
Since May 2014
Structure
Seats 50 councillors

Political groups
Executive (40)

• Conservative (40)

Opposition (10)

• Labour (7)
• Liberal Democrat (3)

 

What do you mean 'fake news'? You were talking carp.

 

Nothing appears to have changed after the inquest from Lakanal - what do you want and expect people to do?

 

I don't remember that bit and can't find the coverage. Fella with glasses, white and middle aged. Sorry as that is probably 80% of people posting here.

 

Whatever the council's role in the past they seem to be conspicuous by their absence now. Certainly in taking the lead (not) in organising the relief effort.

Maybe they're just scared to get out on the street. Maybe with good reason. They might get lynched. May looked scared too. Meeting the plebs at No.10 is a very different thing to getting amongst them on the street.

 

No. I'm saying that when local authorities have their budgets cut year on year then corners start to get cut including those that shouldn't be cut at all.

 

How did the fire actually start?


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The problem is not really a local govt issue. Clearly these cladding blocks are valid under current building regs as they're being used in many other blocks and construction. So the local planning officers and building control officers pass the work off as acceptable. The elected members agreeing it at committee are unlikely to be fire safety experts and even if any of them question the safety of the cladding they would get told it was safe.

If central government has at some point reduced the scrutiny powers of building control officers by amending the law to make it easier for private firms, then theres a massive issue. Same as if someone knew there was an problem and was not taken seriously.

All that goes for if it was indeed the cladding that caused the major incident.

 

This will be found out as part of the fire investigation.

 

Some of the protests and accusation yesterday basically accused May of striking the match that started the fire. Directly blaming her for this horrific event is ludicrous. This tragedy would have happened who ever had been elected.

Looking at the statement that came out yesterday a lot has been going on behind the scenes to get better support in place, unfortunately its all a little to late. Lessons have to be learnt and local councils need to have a plan in place to react quicker to any disaster like this.

There is all sorts of accusations about who approved the cladding etc. The council was tory lead, but these wards had labour councillors. I bet when it all come out there were councillors from both parties involved in the planning committee.

Being a full public enquiry, all those involved in the decision making and all those who voted this through will all be rightly named and shamed.

 

Why? Why are the councillors to blame? I don't see they have done anything more wrong than May. Hornpete is spot on in post #100.

As for the disaster plans and response, those sorts of things do exist in relation to major events, both at central and national level. Why they weren't triggered here is unclear. Perhaps there was a lack of flexibility in applying the plans to the situation. They are largely designed for widespread disasters, not for those concentrated in a particular locality.

 

As someone who has project managed a conversion of an old office facility into a modern business centre 3 years ago and worked with local planning and building control officers, I know that the safety regulations (decided at national level) are normally a minimum required. Thereafter, local officers can insist on higher levels of construction if they wish - and often do.

But, we do not yet know the reasons and why decisions are made. I wouldn't think that the politicians running councils, either in this Tory constituency, or the others where similar cladding has been used on high rise buildings (more likely to be Labour than Tory, due to their locations) have made a straight forward decision to save a few thousand pounds in order to risk hundreds of lives. Below is an extract from the Planning Application for the refurbishment. The focus was on saving energy bills for the residents and making life more bearable in the summer.

"The poor insulation levels and air tightness of both the walls and the windows at Grenfell Tower result in excessive heat loss during the winter months. Addressing this issue is the primary driver behind the refurbishment.

Due to valid safely concerns the windows at Grenfell Towers are restricted to open no more than 100 mm. This restriction causes chronic overheating in the summer months. It is essential that the renovation works do not make the overheating problems any worse and where possible we will strive to reduce overheating in line with current guidelines.

The heating system exacerbates the overheating problem due to its high uncontrolled heat losses throughout the year (including summer) and is also reaching the end of its design life. The client wishes to update the heating system at this point. Updating the heating system allows the disruptive works to ‘piggy back’ on the recladding works.

‘The London Plan July 2011’ aims to conserve energy. A defined energy hierarchy should be followed. This hierarchy is as follows:

1) Be lean: use less energy, in particular by adopting sustainable design and construction measures

2) Be clean: supply energy efficiently

3) Be green: use renewable energy

This approach has been adopted to illustrate the environmental benefits achieved through the refurbishment of the tower."

 

They're a fig leaf is why. People need to understand that when the brown stuff hits the fan they're on their own as local authorities don't have the experience or the man power now (if they ever did) to respond effectively. They're pretty good at the 'sort out what the emergency services need' bit. A hard road closure, a community centre opening in the middle of the night, purchasing 1000 bottles of water or whatever. But there's little beyond that. Public expectation is out of the kilter with reality.

I actually think as well that, on reflection, no matter how well intentioned it was the public response and donations overwhelmed whatever plan was in place. I think in future the military will have to be deployed very early on to relief work as they have the manpower and organisational skills to pull it off.