UKIP - What is it they are going to do for you?

Well we obviously have different standards of politeness.

Farage is obviously not the consummate professional politician, as well versed and briefed in the same way as the mainstream politicians are, and when trying to answer honestly, he made silly mistakes. But they were easily corrected and that doesn't mean that his opponent has to be so darn rude, with childish sniping and athletic digs over relatively unimportant incidents.

I was pretty much opposed to Farage, but after seeing that interview, I have warmed to him a little.

 

I wish people would misquoting me. I didn't mention January 1st did I?

I know they have been trickling in for a few years. The pickpocket gangs have been there for about 4 or 5 years as far as I know, but Rumanians and Bulgarians are the latest additions to the immigration movement and so have been here for a relatively short time compared with the other nationalities.

 

Even if I didn't mention January 1st, my point is exactly the same. They have been allowed here for years under different conditions. And years before that under different conditions to that. As for 'the pickpocket gangs', I'm just talking about Romanians being here/allowed here, I have nothing to say about pickpocket gangs.

 

If you want to make a point, fair enough, make it. But don't say I was talking rubbish when I didn't even say it. The fact is that Rumanians are the latest addition.

 

No they are not, that's exactly my point.

That's why I said that even if I removed the reference to January 1st specifically, my point would still remain.

They are the latest to have free movement rights under the EU directive, but they are not somehow new to this country.

You said, and I quote, 'they have only been allowed in for a very short time', and what I'm saying is that that is simply not true.

 

Those who want to live next door to a family of Romanians can if they want to, but those who wish not to, have they got a choice?

I am very happy with British Culture and if I had the Choice if my new neighbours were Romanian or British, I would choose British and I would expect the majority of people would but none would admit from the "not on my doorstep attitude" if that makes me a Racist then so be it. I am not saying that all Brits are perfect, far from it, just go to any holiday resort and see the behaviour.

Whenever there is a Police Program, even on the lefty BBC, the Pickpockets gangs tend to be Romanian, ask any copper in the Met, off the record and he will answer the question.

This man, unlike the the other 3 leaders of the major parties has got the Balls to discuss the issues that worry a lot of the the population, all the lefties can do is play the race card at every opportunity, the British Public will vote next thursday to see the mood of the country.

 

Since when do spellchecks allow 'Rumanian' to get through? Blatantly it's racist. FFS even their car badges have RO on them!

 

You absolutely have a choice - www.rightmove.co.uk

 

Errr, he threw (allegedly) the money changers out of the temple. Money changers were necessary so people could bring their tokens, coins from elsewhere and fairly exchange them for currency with which to buy sacrificial offerings in the Temple. This was a totally normal part of religious rites and was, in today's terms, akin to throwing the person passing around the collection plate in church out on his arse.

 

Bleeding foreigners coming here and stealing jobs from the home-grown , err Irish, pickpockets who used to "work" the Northern line.

 

He doesn't though. He talks about immegration and that's it. I'd also argue a lot of what UKIP preach is inaccurate and over exegerated (such as making out that foreigners using the NHS is a huge issue, it's not it's a tiny tiny part of the budget)

I saw a good point on twitter. 'There isn't much point going after Farage for being a racist, this is his and his parties USP. Well, not such a unique selling point to be fair, but people aren't going to vote UKIP because they are unaware of their racism'.

 

Nothing I wrote mentioned politeness in any way, shape or form.

Opening with an ad hominem, and for something I didn't even say on top of that...a classic ZZ post in every respect.

 

No, you don't have the choice whether or not to live next door to a family of Romanians unless you wish to move when they arrive. That's freedom. When did 'Romanians' enter our consciousness as this week's worry? Wasn't it our own 'Dole Scum' last week? Black people a couple of decades ago? There is always someone for sure.

Pickpockets shouldn't be tolerated of course - that's why we have the Police. You could imagine the Spanish feeling the same way about some of the many British criminals living in Spain. None of these problems are beyond either us or the EU to solve.

 

It looked like you were excusing his interruptions. I thought they were inexcusable. That is why I said we had different standards. Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

That comes across so fake. You are so UKIP in sympathy.

 

Every time I say something that doesn't fit in with your opinion of me, you declare that I am being false or lying. It is amazing how you insist you know my mind better than I do. You really have a fantastic opinion of yourself, with a matching incorrect opinion of me.

I agree with some things that UKIP say, but certainly not with others. For example, if there was a referendum tomoz about in/out of the EU, I'd vote to stay in. I also want immigration quota's, but I believe that most of the population does as well, and would admit it, if they weren't immediately being accused of being racist.

You are entitled to your opinion Moose, but you are not entitled to my opinion. You are talking out your arse!

 

You are talking out of yours when you watch a car crash interview like that, blame the journalist (LBC note, not the bleeding Guardian) and say it makes you 'warm' to him.

 

Out of interest who do you ZZ and moose vote for? Feel free not to tell me if you don't want to, just interested.

 

I feel so ignored. :doom:

 

In the current circumstances, I'd vote Conservative. Are you surprised?

Edit: I'm surprised Moose didn't answer on my behalf, as he thinks he knows better than I do.

 

I always vote Labour but it's not like I love them or something.

 

Didn't mean to ignore you, I thought we had done the point to death.

Relatively speaking, compared with the other EU countries Romania and Bulgaria were last. Compared with the main members of the EU and the Commonwealth Countries, Romania have only been in for a short time, and when first punishments are fines and probation, it isn't surprising if the % of Romanians in jail is small. That is what I meant. You may disagree with how much a "very short time" is, but that is purely opinion, and doesn't make my post rubbish.

Can we leave it now, please?

 

Relatively speaking, compared with the other EU countries, Romania and Bulgaria were last to be allowed true free movement under the EU directive. Completely. That's true.

But that's not what you said originally. Your point wasn't about the EU, it was about Romanians not being allowed to be here until recently.

I do not take issue with your use of 'very short time', i take issue with you stating that Romanians've not been allowed to enter the UK until a short time ago. They've been allowed in as long as any other non European nation for example, and they have not swarmed across our borders since being afforded the same right to free movement as other full EU members, so there isn't a population of Romanians newly in this country that are just waiting to be put in prison and would be there if only they'd've been here a little bit longer.

Anyway. Pickpockets are bad, some pickpockets are Romanian, therefore the Romanian next door is a pickpocket. That's not logic. And before you say it ZZ I know you didn't say that. This is the kind of logic though that Farage has used to such good effect that it has made you and a lot of other people warm to him.

It mainly makes me feel like banging my head against a wall. This is the political discourse of our time. This is literally it.

 

Where do you get your figures from on the NHS? Our population has increased from 58 million to 64 million between 1997 and 2012, half of which is accounted for by net migration. You don't think catering for 3 million extra people will add a strain to the NHS? It's certainly not a "tiny" part of the budget. I'm unfazed by current levels of immigration but surely there is a point where services just collapse. What level of population are you comfortable with. 70 million? 100 million?

 

Moose is Gillian Duffy?

 

They havn't been as free to enter like the Commonwealth countries, have they? Given British passports, etc? Plus they had restricted movement under the communists, didn't they? Your statement is plain wrong.

When I said " after seeing that interview, I have warmed to him a little", it was because he maintained his dignity and politeness in the face of that moron O'Brien, nothing to do with any logic you are implying.

 

Apologies, change that to 'many other non European nations' and that makes it work.

Warming to Farage because you perceive him as polite is hardly a good reason to vote for UKIP. Politeness is nice, but politics should have more to it than that.

I'm bored of this discussion anyway, I should never have joined in. The world of politics is a depressing place.

 

The NHA party, have a look at their website.

 

Gordon Brown. What a plonker. :dismay:

 

It's a huge website. Do you mind pointing me to where they quantify that having 3 million extra people using the NHS is a tiny impact?

I don't see how a 5% increase in users can be tiny, whether you are pro immigration or against it. And this bearing in mind at a time when the NHS is wailing that it is at breaking point.

As I've said I'm comfortable with current immigration levels, but you saying the impact is "tiny" is just as unhelpful to the debate as UKIP saying the impact is "massive". Immigration should be a reasoned debate, one of which is the impact of increased population on our public services.

 

How on earth can you see O'Brien as a moron? He's a fantastically skilled interrogator and you'd have no problem with him were his guns trained on Harriet Harman.

 

Whilst I agree that immigration should be, to an extent planned, this 5%, even if accurate, is mostly comprised of people who work and pay taxes, that can fund an increase in services. What we will certainly find is that they don't correlate to a increase in use of services beyond their percentage of growth. I.e people don't come here aged 60+ when you use services the most. Many will have returned 'home' by then.

 

That's a fair argument, and quite possibly correct thinking about it logically. But nobody is backing this up - we're only speculating. I've attempted to provide some figures on the population growth of the UK and that which is caused by net migration. The problem I have is that both UKIP, and those in favour of immigration tend to make claims without figures which I find unhelpful to sensible debate.

 

I agree, "warming" to anyone is not a reason to vote for them. I quite liked Tony Benn, for example, but I'd never have voted for him.

Politics isn't boring if we accept that things are not so black and white.

I must say, I think those on the left on this Forum seem very anti centre/right and everything they suggest or put forward. They seem to want to polarise at every opportunity. They seem to think, for example, that because I warmed to Farage, I vote UKIP. Many on the left feel that if someone wants quotas on immigration, then they must be racist. That business owners are all greedy and/or bad employers and all normal workers are exploited. If I say something that doesn't fit in with being in the right-wing 'box' then I must be lying!

With the possible exception of Clive, I dont think that anyone on here is an extreme lefty and I also believe that the majority sincerely believe that their view is the best way forward for a "fairer" society. I actually understand and would agree with many of the "ideals" that those on the left come up with - as a theory. Sadly, when I try and explore how these "ideals" would actually work in practice, I get little input as specific questions are ignored - almost as if there are no answers. That is where the left starts to lose me. But I do understand those ideals, and when I first voted, I voted for Labour. It was my personal experiences with the Unions that started to push me away, and a gentle relisation that those lefty "ideals" do not seem to work in practice.

But I am open to be, at least partly, persuaded.

For example, when I ask how a 'fair wage" can be worked out, what it would be, how would it be enforced, I am met with a stony silence. Yet this concept of "fair" is used in every political thread, but is never specified or quantified. When I ask how we can ensure immigrants are only paid the same as English workers would accept, I am met with yet another stony silence.

Politics needn't be boring at all. It only becomes so if we will only accept one stance.

 

I wasn't referring to immigrants in general using our NHS, I was talking about the 'health tourism' that ukip claimed cost us millions, and helped fuel their agenda. When in reality it's less than a fraction of 1% of the budget. I agree that it's going to be stretched with more people using it, but that's because it's underfunded more than anything else.