It’s odd when rejoin is such an obvious winner due to demographic change and buyers remorse that not even the Lib Dems will propose it.
I get what you're saying. If they were to host a second referendum and lose, or even only narrowly win for rejoin, it would undermine the next decade at least. A rejoin referendum can only take place when there's enough of a case to be made that it's answering the biggest concerns that are facing the country and not via indirect means. Sadly, a lot of those 'concerns' are dictated by the press, for example, small boats.
Even the Guardian's economics editor is making the case today that it's too early to call Brexit a failure and rejoin is just a pipe dream: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...xit-disaster-rejoining-channel-europe-economy
I am not directly translating it, obviously. I am suggesting that your insistence that people view this issue from a purely selfish standpoint (‘what’s in it for me?’) is incorrect. It is also the case that people oppose it for non-selfish reasons, as in ‘what is best for the British population?’
I agree with some of it, but he’s very light on the failures of Brexit in respect of the cost of living, housing and immigration. Correct, however, that EU membership isn’t a magic bullet and that’s the problem. As for this, Brexit provided a safety valve – unavailable elsewhere – for those who felt their concerns were being ignored, the UK has not witnessed the rise of the nasty nationalism seen across the Channel. What planet is he on? The UK has a rancid, noisy flank of anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, anti whatever you’ve got hostility and irrationalism that provides the context for Government policy and for the 57 varieties of the new Right. Brexit has encouraged and aggravated that thinking by elevating cynical grifters to a big audience.
Larry Elliott is an absolutely terrible pundit. He apparently has a nickname at the Grauniad, but it's too rude to repeat. He does all the worst things that bad journalists / commentators do. He selects parts of the facts to suit his argument. Trumping on about Nissan's investment in Sunderland means nothing unless he also mentions the £100 million given to Nissan by the British Government as a sweetener, for example. Like so many British people, he goes on about how bad things are 'across the channel' without actually going there and looking for himself.
It seems Farage hasn't featured very much on 'I'm a celebrity etc'. Apparently, its because he spends most of his time talking about the House of Lords and EU fishing quotas which makes it hard for the programme makers to edit him in.
Nobody is! Not one person has said that the time is right to make a case to rejoin and most are looking at 10 year horizons. Which makes all the 'you guys are naive, not even the LibDems have it as their current policy' responses somewhat amusing.
People have said in reply to me that not making the case now is defeatist and that rejoin could win pretty much on the basis of demographic change and buyer’s remorse alone. That’s what, in turn, I’m replying to, so let’s not make out it’s a straw man thank you. You yourself suggested that pushing the issue forward could ‘pique’ interest. That was a definite suggestion of an opportunity. The responses to me, someone who wants to rejoin, have been quite irritable. I again implore people to look at why we failed last time and why EU membership was not sufficiently protective for certain segments of the population. Or you can just ignore the politics and either never get near another vote or lose it again if we do.
A disgrace. Everyone who watches IACGMOOH is very interested in all of those things. This is just the MSM victimising him again by deliberately paying him £1.5m so no one can see him anymore.
The 'irritability' comes from the perception that you are setting unreasonably lengthy preliminary hurdles which feel like kicking the can down the road endlessly. How long is it going to take to 'fix' issues of housing and precarity of employment if those have to be done first? It could take decades or, indeed, never happen. Maybe you are just more optimistic than me on that point.
It is the very definition of a straw man. Everyone is saying this a long way off and there is no sensible route to it being on the political agenda in the foreseeable future. You keep replying as though people are saying we should be actively campaigning for it now. You can come out with as many statements as you want pontificating about how we don't understand the wider electorate if we think rejoining could win the argument at the moment but it's irrelevant as no-one is saying it.
Yes. I understand where you are getting it wrong. For clarification, people were asking me questions about benefits to the individual, and very, very, specifically so. Nothing you can say subsequently will change that, however much you wish otherwise. You are making an argument that even the people I am addressing are not making. Your argument, with respect to the facts being discussed, is irrelevent. If you can quote the questions put to me from your own experience of them, perhaps I could take it more seriously. But you are telling me that questions you never saw asked are something other than what they clearly stated themselves to be. If the posters who actually asked the questions wanted to make your argument, it would at least have some validity, though I would refute them by repeating their clearly exclusive questions. But you never asked the questions and as far as I can tell were not there to see them. You are in no position to tell me what questions you never saw really meant. I am sure that will not stop you from stating the reasons why you are right in what you say. Please respect my comments, and leave it to those who asked the questions to challenge me.
@Arakel was ‘astounded’ at the thought anyone would think it was an argument we couldn’t win now. @Keighley praised that as encapsulating what he was trying to say. Maybe read the whole thread before making hurtful allegations that make me want to have a big sob.
It wasn't the 'now' bit to which I was referring, but the argument he made, which was much more cogent than mine. I'll leave him to comment on whether he meant now, but that wasn't my reading. I read it as a discussion of whether the case on Rejoin could be won without accompanying policy changes in different fields.
I’m not simply trying to set a random precondition. It’s what I believe needs to change in order to sufficiently neutralise the nativist, anti-immigration agenda that won last time. The EU itself could be asked to be part of that renewal. Any party that wanted to promote re-entry could provide expectations to the EU that the levers for halting FOM when required were clearer and that the UK would require a rebate/assistance to meet the housing requirements of FOM. Other Countries may feel the same, but that’s up to them and maybe a benefit to them. There may also be local property owning restrictions that the EU could agree to. In short, a party wanting to rejoin needs a war effort on housing that probably requires appropriation of land and assets. However, as you might guess, I believe the actions needed to house families rather than prefer second home owning or have empty luxury flats for overseas investors may be a lot stronger. Essentially they require restraint on capital and that’s a problem for the EU and a problem for rejoiners. The trouble is fairy tale UK wants it all. Homes for working class heroes, holiday homes and buy to rent for the middle classes and massive estates for the wealthy.
I think you are Phillipe-flopping more than a French fella in sandals. To summarise, we both want to rejoin. Both probably see it in the middle distance, have different views on the likelihood of success and how to get there.
I agree with the second point, but because I seem to be much less optimistic than you, I see the addressing of housing and employment issues as much further away, hence the suggestion you were delaying. To be clear, I don't see that those issues need to be 'solved' for Rejoin to win, although I can see why you think it would be helpful.
I think that is a sign of stagnant thinking. Heck, if a party was working to achieve those things, and had a solid strategy for going back into the bloc, negotiating from a position of strength (and making it clear that we are capable of surviving outside of yhe EU) then I think it could be a persuasive mission. The only thing that may go against it would be the degree of success. It may encourage us to think that we do not need to be in the EU. But I would say that strong and effective leadership has far more chance of succeeding than does relying on apathy and waiting for Conservatives to die.
Sorry. Missed this originally. I’d ask the same of Germany, and other countries who have been behind us in their recovery, only they didn’t leave the EU. Perhaps there have been other factors affecting all of us that have been far more influential than Brexit? The Ukrainian war, perhaps? The pandemic, perhaps? Someone blowing up the Nordstream pipeline, perhaps? Anti Brexit BS and people (both here and abroad) willing for Britain to fail, perhaps? We do more trade now with the EU than we did before the vote. We have more trade agreements around the world than we did before the vote. We have more immigration (from around the world) than we had before the vote. Please tell me if I am wrong. You can attempt to minimise the concept of leaving the EU as a victory, but as it happens, it IS the overwhelmingly primary factor in the vote. That is why the referendum asked leave or remain. Like it or not, we voted to leave. Leaving the EU was the ultimate win, because we wanted it.
Surprised to hear he, Farage, is still in there (I haven’t watched it since John Lydon walked off the set). So checked ‘Der Faragers’ and nothing. I’m guessing he must be doing rather well.
What news of Jacob Rees Mogg, an architect of Brexit and Global Britain I hear no one ask. It seems that his Global Investment Management firm Somerset Capital has had to fold after losing its main clientele. So it appears one of those who shouted most loudly about the opportunities of Global Britain is unable to make a profit on his Global business post Brexit. What were the chances of that? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67648262
Not so blessed are the cheesemakers https://www.theguardian.com/politic...british-attempt-to-secure-tariff-free-exports
Just about to post this. I hope that Starmer will realise that his best hope of a second term is to rejoin single market and CU (if not in name, in effect) to get growth, and for full rejoining to follow in the shortest timeframe feasible.
I agree in the long term but I’d like to hear what his short term solutions are too. Reading that Boris lied again is as surprising as me finding we’re having turkey on Christmas Day - and I’m doing the cooking! I doubt the EU see helping us sort out our mess a priority either
Look, just accept that any British business should rejoice at the fact they now have the SOVEREIGN RIGHT to go bust as part of a totally liberated country, rather than survive and employ people and suchlike as mere chattels of an evil, aggressive empire.
Thought for Xmas: "He's not the Messiah - he's a fcuking greedy idiot naughty boy: James Dyson criticises Tories for not ‘going for growth’ after fall in GDP Inventor defends economic policies of Kwasi Kwarteng and Liz Truss that sent economy crashing
Starting to look like the writers at the Express are openly taking the piss out of their readers at this point: Scheming EU countries leave UK out of 'landmark' transport plans as map reveals betrayal The UK is omitted from a major trans-European transport project poised for approval by the EU Commission. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1849136/eu-countries-britain-transport
It's clearly not an EU project, and does involve other non-EU countries. So much for European co-oprration. Not that I think it is worth bothering about. If we were contributing to it, undoubtedly we would be subsidising smaller states, so I am not sure what is to gain from this, other than making the EU look like the childish organisation it is. More interesting are the UK wins in other articles on the same page - us not being monitored by the EU Council for non-compliance, and the EU dropping tarfifs on UK electric car imports into the bloc. I think leavers did promise that restrictive practices like that would likely be dropped. Thanks for the indifferent news, as well as the good news.
Damn. That's another 0.00000000000000003% off our GDP. Getting really bad. Those North American commies are going to have to pay through the nose for their English cheeses. Do I hear "We don' need no Steeenking Beeeshop".
