Of course, but this chap Ali should never have been standing as a Labour candidate given his views on Israel (which I think he is perfectly entitled to, by the way) are so at odds with Sir Keir's new jew-friendly party. The fact that he was and Starmer initially stood by him only to then give him the boot is just another example to support what appears to be the increasingly widely held view that Sir Keir is - even by the standards of today's political class - a wholly dishonourable man. Here's a question for you - why is it too late to get Ali removed from the ballot paper as the official Labour candidate? the election isn't until Feb 29th which is, what, over two weeks away. Surely a printer can be found who can turn round the job of reprinting the forms in that time?
I don’t think it shows that. Ali presented Labour with a very difficult problem, in that he couldn’t be replaced in a seat where Labour is the overwhelming choice of the electorate. I am sure he gave assurances that he was very sorry and wouldn’t do anything like it again. The leadership would have had to decide what the least worse course of action was, to deprive their voters or simply ditch the guy at the GE later in the year. Not great, but that’s politics. When further information came out, Labour acted. It does show one problem, that right wing Labour candidates are insufficiently scrutinised. Your second point is an issue for the Electoral Commission not the Labour Party. I know this is massive for conservatives, because it’s the only thing they have. But even you agree this is the right outcome.
Two things I've heard and read today. Apparently Ali was considered a "moderate Muslim" before this recent outburst and was even supported by Jewish members of the party as a good candidate for Rochdale. There is also a rumour that the Mail deliberately sat on the story until the nomination date passed knowing that Labour would not be able to replace Ali on the ballot paper. If both are true then it does put a different light on how Labour got themselves into this mess. Definitely the right call to disown Ali but it should have been as soon as his comments were known, regardless of the position regarding nominations.
Postal votes will have already gone out and you can't have polling booth ballot papers differing from postal vote ones.
I wasn't suggesting it was something to do with the Labour Party. I was just interested to know why the ballot papers couldn't be pulped and new ones printed. @hornmeister has kindly provided the answer - so that's one thing less for me to think about this afternoon
It’s not antisemitic to care about it though. Think about what you are saying. Most people are capable of taking a balanced view, even if a few are not. You’d be better off getting the conservative/nationalist house in order if racism is your concern.
Unfortunately too many allow their concerns for the Palestinian people to drift into antisemitism - or at least anti-Israel. The trouble is I'm not at all sure where being anti-Israel (which I assume is an acceptable view to have and articulate) becomes anti-semitism.
I think it’s difficult to have nuanced debates. It’s not really ok to be anti-Israel per se. It’s a Country where many live perfectly peaceably. People can take all the exception to the Israeli Government’s actions they want.
That's a better way of putting it. So, shall we agree that people like Ali sometimes allow their legitimate dislike of the Israeli government to wander into anti-semitism, which is a bad thing
I think that’s generous to him. There should be a reflex for any person with a care for humanity that doesn’t look to find excuses to blame the victims. There is no doubt that the Israeli state made horrific blunders that allowed Hamas in, but no evidence whatsoever these were purposeful with the intent that Israelis could then wage war. While some of these are a defensive reflex, because reasonably people still want the Palestinians protected despite Hamas atrocities and in some part the usual barmy fall out of World events that sees, for example, 9/11 blamed on the US State by conspiraloons, Jews often seem to be blamed for the terrible things that happen to them. A person with half a brain who wants to stand for election would surely avoid that.
So would you accept that Ali's remarks where so inappropriate that Sir Keir should have given him a straight red card rather than trying to ride out the storm as he appears to have done
Not defending Ali's comments for a moment but how many disgraced Tory MPs is it now? Any danger of the spotlight being well and truly shone on the Peter Bone situation? Or will the right-wing press wet its lap reporting absolute garbage from Shapps and Braverman instead? I wonder.
It becomes anti-Semitic when you attribute actions to the fact that they are being taken because they are Jewish, and not to the fact that the people taking those actions just happen to be Jewish.
this situation is massive for Starmer. Should he have reacted quicker? - yes, especially to make a point in a seat that means very little if he wins it or not. Essentially even if Ali winds in Starmer as to take the whip off him on day 1. The issue he seems to have now is the talk of other MPs being at the event where Ali spoke, yet none of them advised him. The fact that it is rumored that the lady who sits to his left was there and knew of these comments could be huge. If she was then he has a massive decision to make. I'm not sure how Labour work with regard to leader / deputy leader, except they are voted by a national executive, but it could leave him really red faced. Ali apparently was also part of the working team that campaigned the day of "beergate" so well known to the Starmer and the front bench. At the moment the only thing that can stop Starmer getting into No10 is Labour themselves and lets face it the situation they are creating for themselves could end up doing just that. He needs to get a proper grip of the situation before he ends up in the situation that Corbyn did. It could be dither and die for him.
Not at all. The sooner the tories are out the better, in fact the sooner we move away from FPTP and this ridiculous 2 party power sharing sh*tshow the better The tories are the most corrupt government we have ever seen and we all want a better stronger alternative, which I just don't see from any party in British politics right now
Ali’s remarks were stupid and offensive, deplorable for candidate whose role if elected would be to serve all communities. Rightly he had to apologise and rightly, when more was known, he was ditched. Nothing about that detracts from the clear line Starmer has made around issues of antisemitism. His leadership has been strong on that issue. Any suggestion otherwise is unsupportable. Contrast that with the former Home Secretary who summoned a fascist mob to the Cenotaph and could not even condemn them shouting ‘**** the Koran, **** Allah.’ It took weeks for her to be dismissed, but she is still adored by conservatives, still an MP, a future leadership candidate no less. We need to keep a sense of proportion.
Two huge by-election wins chalked up overnight. Yes, any opposition party aiming for No 10 needs to be winning by-elections handily at this stage but both seats were flipped by massive swings here. Plus Reform sucking up 10-13% of the Tory vote by coming at them from the even further right.
The Conservative/Reform split is quite sensational. Imagine if a Labour faction split away and took half as many votes as Labour? Labour would be considered pretty much finished. Not seen the like since the SDP/Gang of Four in the 80s. Ben Habib of Reform is quite potty but summarised the situation as The Conservatives are the problem and they have to go.
As expected the turnouts were abysmal Kingswood - down from - 2017 - 48,741 voters 70% turnout 2019 - 49,314 voters 71.5% turnout 2024 - 24,905 voters 37.1% turnout Elected MP down from 27,712 votes in 2019 to 11,176 with a big swing ( labour MP lost in 2019 with 16,492 votes in 2019 !! ) Wellingbourough down from 2017 - 53,240 voters - 67.2% turnout 2019 - 51,913 voters - 64.3% turnout 2024 - 30,220 voters - 38.1% turnout Elected MP down from 32,277 votes in 2019 to 13,844, again with a big swing ( Labour MP lost in 2019 with 13,737 votes, so a small increase and more converted Tories with the low turn out ) Tories have lost kingswood - 19,000 votes Wellingborough - 24,800 votes Evan based on a low turnout it shows just how much there is no trust and how disliked they are. (Labour a nett loss between the two elections of over 5000 votes don't forget that it was a very low turnout though) Evan at by-election levels , turnouts of 37/38% shows just how disengaged people are getting with politics and the two main parties. I think it shows that neither party is doing practically well and winning over the British public. It just shows that one is less Sh!t than the Tories, which to be honest isn't that difficult.
*They're all as bad as each other alert* End of the day, the Tories lost two more seats and Labour gained two. Yes, turnout was low, but as they say in golf, there's no room on the scorecard for pretty pictures. As unlovable as you might think Starmer is, Labour are doing the steady thing. Picking up wins where perhaps they might not have. And although it doesn't get much coverage and there's a desperate, desperate wish among Tories and their supporters to cast Labour as a party without ideas etc they are quietly putting together a better-looking alternative. They don't need emphatic 5-0 wins at the moment. The key here is that Reform did very badly in both constituencies and that, in itself, ought to give the Tories an uncomfortable few moments. Rosy-cheeked 'get orf my land' merchant Rupert Lowe (ex-Southampton FC) managed just 2,500 votes. There's so little appetite for what they're selling.
Serious question. What is it you believe would win over the British public? What would happen if the two main parties adopted it?
Personally I don't think there is much the opposition parties can do. The right of centre MSM only defence of this woeful government is to say "look over there" those parties will be even worse given power. I think @With A Smile is correct, the general public is disengaged with politics in general and there is no great excitement for a Labour government, just a strong desire to get rid of the Tories. I'm sure Labour will take that right now in the hope that, when in office, they can reignite optimism and growth in the nation resulting in the population re-engaging with politics.
Honesty, identity and being committed to their principles. Whether we like it or not I believe that 75% of the country are slightly center left. We all want a more equal society, a fairer system for all and everyone to have the same opportunity. None of us want homelessness, poverty, foodbanks etc. Everyone should be able to spend the money they earn, have a roof over their head and be able to feed themselves and their family. It makes you wonder why since the end of the 70’s why the Tories have been in power for 32 of the last 45 years. 32 years when we have all known that they are taking from us to line their own pockets. We accept it because those that have experienced working and owning a house at the same time under previous Labour government was so much worse. We for some reason have been happy to be ripped off and exploited – its bizarre. Any other country there would be riots in the streets by now. We know the issues with the Tories and lining each others pockets, as well as their mates. But we now see Labour taking millions from Green energy companies and private healthcare companies as personal donations and they aren’t even in power yet. Labour moan about these companies making huge profits, but are happy to take their donations, probably pre tax. A complete lack of principle and ethincs. There is one front bench MP, who rents her 2nd London home from her Husband and we pay £’000 a month for the privilege. All that is doing is taking money from our pockets and putting it in theirs. Each and everyone of them are on the take, whether its by using their role as an MP to get other roles as non exec directors in other businesses and earning money that the rest of us would only dream of. Just look at the wealth of Major, Blaire, Brown, Johnson, Cameron and what they have earned since taking the role of PM. They used it as a pathway to huge huge amounts of personal fortune. None of them are honest, none have true principles and spin the truth to meet their own personal agenda. I once had the absolute pleasure of going to a Lunch where Betty Boothroyd was the after meal speaker. She said that MPs never lie, but they never tell the truth either. – How right she was. Sunak, Starmner, Cameron, Johnson, May, Brown, Blaire, Truss, all changed their believes and policies to what they thought the public wanted to hear. None have the balls to say – this is what I believe in and why. I’m sticking with this. Whether I or you think its right or wrong is irrelevant, there will always be a difference of opinion, but for christ sake stick to your principles and live or die by them. No one has ever progressed using populist politics. If you look at every party, Tories, Labour, Brexit – opps Reform, none of them have a hard and fast set of policies that you can pin your hat on and say that they “this is what they stand for”. Give the Green party credit for being the only party that does. What do the LibDems stand for except being a protest vote? We have corruption in Parliment, tax, sexual abuse, expenses across all MPs. No one has a clue why Nick Brown was suspended and we are never going to hear. Why not? This is a public servant, why wouldn’t we be told? Why cover it up? The whole Westminster system is corrupt. We know that they mark their own homework, they appoint the judges, civil servants who carry out the investigations into themselves – how is that right? We see civil servants with massive massive pensions, of £100k a year+, who set policy for various governments to follow. The exploitation of our tax throughout the system is historic since the 70s. There isn’t one party out thee who is talking about fixing the issues within the institution, none really want to change anything, why would they its all tilted in their favor. None have a leader who is prepared to be unpopular to do the right thing. Not picking on Starmer, but those MPs who stood with Ali should have lost the whip by now, so should the Islamophobs in the Tories. In what other walk of life wouldn’t you. Me, anyone would have been sacked for sexual abuse in the work place, calling a college scum or someone else’s work place a ********? HR would have been all over us. Their HR and standards committee are made up and run by themselves! All sides have created a system where they are untouchable, where nothing is ever done for any of their behaviors, but we as sheep are expected to toe the line and suck it up. We don’t have political leaders, we have puppets put in place by the “institution”. Labour quite rightly will win the next election, this Torie government has to go. But realistically nothing will change. MPs will still line their pockets and the corruption that is currently with the Tories will switch across to the Labour party in 3 or 4 years time as the greed of power escalates. Will the faceless puppeteers of who pulls the political strings do anything about it? I very much doubt it.
I agree people are not especially enthused by politics in general but comparing a by-election turnout with a list of general election turnouts is comparing apples with oranges. We've seen anything from 24% to 53% in by-elections in the last couple of decades (outside of N Ireland anyway).
Took a large slice of a diminishing pie in Wellingborough. Significant, but not enough to be a breakthrough for them. In the other, they tanked.
There is a lot to unpack here, so I’ll reply in due course. However, I don’t think it stacks up that things were ‘so much worse’ under the last Labour Government. That was probably true in Baghdad, but not in the UK, which saw a fairly long period of relative political and economic stability (even if that failed to address structural problems of declining towns and access to housing). As for Nick Brown, it could be politics, but it’s a frustrating aspect of disciplinary proceedings in all areas of life that sometimes issues cannot be made public, because of certain health or procedural issues. These are mostly justifiable, even if (ongoing) confidence in the process suffers.
Outside of a niche of poltocs nerds or rabid followers of facists and populists I don't think there's ever an enthusiasm, and all big changes in politics come from wanting to get the current rulers out. I much prefer that and think a disdain for the leaders is healthy. We could do with being more like the French in that regard
