Sir Keir Starmer’s Barmy Army

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Moose, Sep 29, 2021.

  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Enjoyed warm applause for what was both a great speech and a long series of platitudes. The odd heckle too, but hey! That’s Labour!
     
  2. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Toot! Toot!
     
  3. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    “Level up, you can’t even fill up” was a pretty decent line that should cut through.

    Glad those who would rather be dogmatic than electable are being forced back to the fringes of the party where they belong.
     
  4. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    You mean it was a long speech full of platitudes. Is he trying to bore people into voting Labour? Bring back Jezza. Everyone knows he's our only hope now
     
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  5. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I’m never quite sure what appeals to people anyway. It seemed pretty cringeworthy at times, but he also set out a pretty good vision. Trouble is if it's code for Blair Mk2 then we know where that goes, PFI and BAU.

    But he has strengthened his position as leader and there’s no point the odd Corbyn diehard shouting from the back. It just adds a frisson.

    And badly needed too because Keith’s pitch is look what a great bureaucrat I am, that Johnson isn’t a serious person which is fine until you remember he is talking to the UK, the sort of nation that names things Boaty McBoatface and enjoys a good ****-up.
     
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  6. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Well yes, being dogmatic is bad.

    But then so is fighting illegal wars that leave hundreds of thousands dead and inspire terrorism or because of your faith in the market, failing to invest in communities for so long that they abandon Labour.

    Maybe simply being annoying isn’t so bad.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  7. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Nice to see that at least one die-hard, far left-socialists on here has seen the light.
     
  8. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    I can tell you what doesn't appeal to people. Angela Rayner
     
  9. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Did you catch any of Sir Keithy’s speech?
     
  10. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    If you mean Kier's, then yep.
     
  11. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    No I meant Keir.

    So whaddya think? You going to dislike for being electable or unelectable?
     
  12. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    If I was a Labour voter, then he has moved in the right direction if all I wanted waa to get Labour in government. But in reality, although he said all the right things for the fawning section of the audience, he didn't give much substance, so his promises mean next to nothing. He could have promised to end all world poverty and disease and he would have got away with it. As Greta would say, it was just "Blah, blah".

    So a reasonable Conference speech to a split party, then!

    But if I was a floating voter, he just leaves me pretty non-plussed. I wouldn't have been impressed with the sanctimonious, cringeworthy, nauseating attempts for sentimentality, and neither would I be impressed by his picking a problem, and saying he'd sort it out. Anybody can say that, and not mean it at all.

    The UK has an huge debt mountain, and we are just emerging from a difficult Brexit and pandemic and an economic slump. I doubt if he gave the impression that he has the positivity, the charisma, the strength of character to knock the UK back into shape and drive us forward in a brave new world. He is a leftie John Major. So, in my view he needs a bit more lead in his pencil to actually win enough votes.
     
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  13. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    The illegal war was awful and idiotic, but not sure it has anything to do with Blair being a centrist. The majority of wars are started by extremists.

    Labour and the centre loved life under Blair. They haven’t been in power since, irrelevant of the amount of spending promised to people/ communities.

    Rather, the slow movement away from the centre has increasingly killed the Labour Party (Corbyn (the first time around) technically did better than Ed, but he was going up against a far less worthy opponent who was threatening to make elderly people pay a fair amount for their care rather than pass it onto poorer younger people; in their eyes unforgivable).
     
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  14. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    This isn’t true I’m afraid. The disconnect between Labour and its supporters developed throughout the Blair era until Brown was completely unelectable. It left a legacy of discontent about what Labour actually did for certain communities. That wasn’t reversed until Corbyn’s 40% and then tanked again after Brexit.

    It’s no good centrists complaining about obvious electability. You’ve been whooped everywhere, from in the Tory Party to the poor performance of Libs and another centre parties.

    What Labour needs to find is the landing strip that combines effective government with ideals. That’s what Starmer promised today, but he needs the left to keep him honest. If he just delivers for the middle class and wealth creators he won’t win back those who deserted Labour. @Davy Crockett Knows I’m right.
     
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  15. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Are you trying to claim that Brown/ Miliband were less electable than Corbyn?

    The issue with Labour is the same issue that they’ve always had, which is the sensible people in their party are held ransom by the far left.

    David Miliband was very electable, but was screwed over by his brother and the unions, who wanted a move left. And unsurprisingly, you haven’t won an election since.

    To be fair, Scotland is a massive issue for Labour, as the electoral calculations don’t really make sense without some serious inroads there.
     
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  16. Laughed at the response to the heckler

    "Shouting slogans.." he says in a derisory tone before using a slogan himself "or...changing lives"

    Yer okay
     
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  17. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    I'd be as likely to vote Labour at the moment as I am to vote Tory.

    No way I could even hold my nose and vote for this lot.
     
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  18. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    So answer this, if it’s a return to Blairism you want, is it likely that former Labour seats will vote for it?

    I really despair of the centre’s triumphalism. It’s like some don’t read a newspaper, don’t talk to people. It’s very unpopular. It has lost again and again recently.

    Labour needs unity. It won’t be middle class liberals in Hertfordshire knocking doors and delivering leaflets for Keir. It will be activists. It was mostly the same membership who voted for Keir who voted for Corbyn. They are not daft. They want to win too, but not to deliver Tory Lite. What would be the point?

    All Keir has to do to satisfy the left is abide by the platform he was elected on. What’s wrong with that?
     
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  19. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Everyone’s ‘oooh, the hard left’ but this made me laugh.

    2B7C2857-9913-4728-BAC4-461E4C1050FA.jpeg
     
  20. Heidar

    Heidar Squad Player

    Probably why the Lib Dems took Amersham and Chesham by a landslide.

    A rejection of Tory and Labour (the latter now being a dead duck with 1.6%, below Greens and "Others").

    I used to vote for the Conservatives, but after they treated the more moderate MPs disgracefully by way of sacking anyone who disagreed with them (Gauke, Soames, Clarke etc). That's the behaviour of a dictatorship and I will never vote for them again.
     
  21. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    A lot of what Keir says seems to make sense, but he just leaves me a bit cold. He at least understands that going down the socialist route guarantees failure at the next election, and therefore he needs to try something different.
     
  22. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Yeah, agreed. He comes across like the lawyer that he is. I could see the Germans or the Scandinavians going for his sort of personality, but not the British electorate.
     
  23. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Heaven's above, just been watching Starmer on GMB, and it must have been the easiest 10 minute "grilling" of his life. And to cap it off, he now reckons that the next James Bond should be a female.

    Shameless wokery.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  24. He helped Corbyn write the last manifesto now happily trashes it

    I think he just wants to be PM, and will adopt any position on anything to get it

    I could never vote for him (I can't see myself voting for anyone next GE)
     
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  25. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    When you say the ‘socialist route guarantees failure’ why is it that the Tories will be offering state intervention, nationalisation (albeit limited), that they will invest in the NHS, that wages will rise etc?

    I don’t believe that they will really do these things or do them effectively, but these typical socialist approaches are not unpopular with voters, especially not those who Labour need to win.

    Do those praising Starmer for abandoning socialism want privatisations, outsourcing, reduced pension schemes, global manufacturing, buy to rent etc all the things that come with neoliberalism?

    Is it you think the Labour Party should simply be the Lib Dems who can win?
     
  26. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Never mind luv. There will always be films featuring hunky middle aged men doing improbable stunts if that’s what floats your boat.
     
  27. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It is completely different when state intervention is used to address an operational problem with an essential service when compared with state intervention driven by socialist political ideology that, in essence, promotes state interventionm across the board with all the proven downsides that will bring. The electorate aren't as dim as you may think, they can understand the difference.

    You term Starmer's stance as abandoning "socialism", and implying that will mean wholesale privatisations, but neither Labour or Tories want that.

    It doesn't need to be so polarised as you try and make it, there can be a mix of both and neither the far-left, or far right would be happy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  28. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    If you don’t reverse privatisations or legislate many people will never afford a decent home or have a good pension. They will always live in fuel poverty.

    It’s not just about dealing with the odd poorly performing train company. Privatisation is a failed model of distribution and organisation that has simply transferred wealth from poor to rich.
     
  29. WatfordTalk

    WatfordTalk First Team

    Exactly this. He was elected on a platform of largely socialist principles, and he's slowly abandoning them. That won't be forgotten.

    The promise: "Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders"

    Today: "Labour won't nationalise energy, says Starmer"

    The promise: "Defend free movement as we leave the EU"

    Today: Rachel Reeves: "Labour will not bring back freedom of movement"

    The promise: "Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people"

    Today: More and more unions cutting ties with Labour, abandoning Teaching unions during Covid peak
     
    Moose likes this.
  30. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I have low bar for what I would be happy with from Labour. The last eleven years have been so excruciating, have reduced so many people to poverty and food banks, have spawned so many wrong headed irrational views that I would settle for some mild, but real ‘levelling up’, some effective management of the country, some proper investment in services and a real green new deal. But I’m feeling underwhelmed by Starmer even at that low level of demand and I won’t be the only one.

    But I do think his positioning himself as a serious individual with a career will cut through as people get more and more tired of this Government’s incompetence.

    "And when this country was threatened by terrorists who were trying to bring down planes with liquid bombs, I spent the summer of 2010 helping to put those terrorists behind bars where they could no longer pose a danger to British citizens.

    "While I was doing that, what were you doing Mr Johnson? You were writing a piece defending your right not to wear a cycle helmet."
     
  31. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Yes, I understand what your ideology is. But I don't think the voting public want that. They want to succeed through their own endeavours, not be spoon-fed by the state.

    I agree, some privatisation has failed, but many private enterprises succeed. There is a mix of successes and failures. But there is no doubt that socialism has always failed when delivered wholesale (which is what you want).

    Personally, I think that the best model utilises the best of both state and private, not driven by ideology, but driven by the results. Government(s) should tweak around that mix to achieve the ultimate balance, increasing and decreasing as they see fit, and elections will drive that based on experiences over the previous 5 years. I think the electorate want evolution, not revolution, and that is the far-left's big problem that you seem to struggle to acknowledge. You see it as an revolutionary ideological struggle. The electorate see it as just looking after their family and really can't be arsed about ideology,
     
  32. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    You are telling me what I think and not reading what I am actually writing. I don’t think everyone needs to wear NHS specs anymore. The problem is your ideology that privatisation is best means there is never any rational evaluation of which ones work until they need state support.

    But sure, let’s carry on with soaring energy prices, soaring rents and food banks. Everything else this model delivers.
     
  33. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Do you really think that was impressive? Yes, it may have fooled the shallow-minded, but considering it was his job as AG in the Tory government, that was what he was being paid a fortune for. I thought that was just childish and pathetic from Starmer, rather than showing he is "a serious individual".
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  34. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I think anyone can see from my previous posts, that my ideology is not privatisation is "best". I've said many times that the railways could maybe go back to state ownership, for example. I've just said that a blend of state and private is best.
     
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  35. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    The current Tories are essentially high tax, big state and incompetent to boot. As such I have nobody to vote for. I’ll vote libdem I guess. As you say of every offer is socialism then I might as well pick someone with joined up thinking.
     
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