London Bridge

Like most people of my generation I was educated in an environment where Christianity and Christian worship was very much on the agenda but, again like most people, I worked out for myself that it had little basis in fact. Ignoring the extremists, why is it that so many people retain such unshakable belief in Islamic teachings into adulthood when it is clearly mumbo-jumbo? I know all regions have huge numbers of believers but from my (highly unsophisticated) viewpoint, it seems very few young muslim men and woman realise that religion is all crap and go on to lead lives of merry, guilt-free debauchery than the rest of us. Perhaps they're right. I doubt it though

 

I did not say that at all, I said those who are suspected of having such sympathies.

By which I meant, those that in the commonly used vernacular, "are known to the security services" As that phrase seems to come up again and again after one of these atrocities have been committed, it would seem prudent to me to remove these people from the streets and vet them thoroughly, and I do not mean by "water boarding" them or anything like that, before you accuse me of advocating physical torture.

Better to vet them in a secure enviroment and release them if they are deemed not to be a threat, than to just leave them out there and chance that they will not take their idealogy to a violent murderous level.

 

This is word-for-word exactly and precisely what they used to say about negotiating with the IRA.

They won't negotiate! They're not interested in negotiating. We won't negotiate with terrorists!

Except then they did.

And that solved it.

 

Take away his passport and citizenship, wipe away his identify... the lot so he can't get back into the UK

Then strap a parachute on him and drop him over the middle east

 

The IRA demanded a united Ireland as their primary and fundamental demand.

Did they get it?

I think perhaps the demands of fundamentalist Muslim leaders may have been misrepresented. Again we used to hear this about the IRA. They didn't even have a cause. All they were interested in was killing as many Brits as possible. They loved the slaughter. They would never negotiate.

Even if the demands you list were their starting point, perhaps some sort of deal could be negotiated concerning the non-invasion and constant bombing of Muslim countries? That seems to be what they're most upset about.

 

Yes, like Galtieri used to do in Argentina! Take people up in helicopters and then throw them out over the sea.

Marvellous.

 

Do you think a deal with scum (like ISIS) who commit mass executions, burn people alive for the fun, and throw homosexuals off the roof is remotely palatable to the UK public?

 

It's not.

From their magazine Dabiq, in an article named "Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You".

"The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam."

 

The IRA had bit of a point. This lot don't. Don't talk to them. Just kill them.

 

When ISIS first came to prominence I downloaded these to "read" on my tablet. I say "read" as they're very glossy and well laid out with, lots of pretty good, photography but full of, basically, impenetrable and, for me, virtually unreadable articles. This type of high fallutin' text is something I'm used to from, normally post-grad/doctoral students as they feel they have to write in an exceptionally artificial "academic" manner/voice to show how "clever/academic" they are to their "target audience". That's before you get to the tautological knots they tie themselves with trying to explain and justify their death cult.

EDIT: I can only imaginer their target readership looking at it and thinking:

 

The IRA realised the game was up. A combination of an effective intelligence network and kicking in doors had greatly diminished their ability to operate - that's what bought them to the negotiating table. Don't believe otherwise

 

There are no easy answers to this. We can learn from history that shows that internment and 'crack downs' have not worked in the past. There are not a fixed number of radicalised people that you can lock up or kill and the problem is solved. If you give a cause a sense of injustice then others will join it.

In my view we need to look at the fundamental reasons why young people turn to these evil cults. Most youngsters go though an anti-establishment rebellious stage and this is when they are most vulnerable to being radicalised. It is not easy but if you give these youngsters worthy role models to guide them and a sense that they belong to and are part of the society around them then perhaps they will embrace it rather than fight against it.

Community policing, good teachers and providing these youngsters with opportunities for good, skilled, well paid work might give them a vision of a future that makes if harder for them to be recruited by the extremists. If you starve these mad men of their 'soldiers' then they will be marginalised and powerless.

 

education and well paid jobs don't make people conform

half the people in football firms of the 80s and 90s that I knew were well educated and well paid small business owners, estate agents, salesmen etc wore suits and drove expensive cars

young men have a natural rebellion thing going on

 

Also those involved in the football violence of the 70's and 80's were not just youths. I think the motivation was not rebelling against society but basic tribal instincts to fight against another tribe.

I'm not saying there is a magic bullet but I do think that youths that do not feel part of society are much more likely to fight against it. If they do not feel they have a future they are much more likely to give their lives for a cause however evil or illogical it might be.

 

one of my favourite designers. Loved him on Eurotrash.

 

I wonder if this is a golden opportunity for the Christian and Catholic Churches to make themselves more relevant to western youth? Given that our politicians do not have the will to defend us, perhaps it is time for another crusade. I am sure if the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope came out swinging, Europe's young men would soon fall in behind them

 

In the Channel 4 documentary featuring one of the London Bridge attackers, I am told (haven't seen) that their posing around with a black flag and generally being cartoon jihadis attracted other young Muslims who wished to confront them and possibly give them a good shoeing. They were prevented from doing so by the Police, who were of course only doing their duty to keep the peace and who as individuals might have preferred to let them get on with it.

 

I think you should tell more people about your ideas Lloyd, maybe someone with a professional qualification and an understanding manner.

 

Most Muslims are in fact secular in orientation. They may identify as 'muslims', but identity is more than religion.

 

You just make it up Moose. What's the source for this latest left-field comment?

 

Eh?!! That's a bit cryptic! I'm not entirely sure that I get what you mean by this. Are saying that some people call themselves muslims when they are, in fact, nothing of the sort? I think it is stretching things somewhat to describe even the most moderate muslim as 'secular'

 

Ha ha! Quite! Like all Lefties Moose often ends up talking bollox in his desperate rush to occupy the moral and intellectual high ground! He's harmless

 

Errrr...possibly meeting/knowing quite a lot of people who "identify" as Muslims? They're not all Koran toting beardie-wierdies.

 

Hipsters?

 

No. They're not. But I suggest they're a whole lot less secular on average than the rest of us.

 

Maybe so, but many, perhaps most don't really believe in god in any more significant way than you eat Xmas dinner or go to a christening and many are just atheists. Lots of people do religious stuff with their communities, but don't swallow much of the whole deal at all.

 

Race vs religion....

 

I originally wrote :

which would have probably incurred the wrath of @Squibba.

 

What's the average mosque attendance per annum per muslim person as opposed to the average church attendance per annum per 'christian/seen the light person?

 

Forget average christians per church, how about an average vicars per church

I have a vicar living across the road, very friendly chap, he has to cover 5 churches, poor old fruit gets completely knackered flying from place to place giving the same sermon over and over

 

Funnily enough I haven't a scooby. I imagine it may be higher. But I'm more interested in the wider world.

So where I work there is a big open plan office with about 60 people in immediate view. Of the nearest 30 six I know are Muslims five of them women. Of the women four are youngish (variously from backgrounds from Turkey, North Africa, and Pakistan and they always come out drinking when we socialise. One does nip off at suspicious intervals during the day but this is to smoke. One woman does wear a headscarf. She is very friendly, which is quite an annoying thing in an office, but I wouldn't intern her for it. The guy does support a dodgy football team and clearly loves his kids as he bangs on about them more than I do (about mine). This doesn't rule him out of being a secret jihadist, but somehow I doubt it. There are others in the office, black, and another possibly Balkan and I don't know what they are, but they seem, well ordinary. Another guy is white and has a worrying hipster beard, which whilst a crime against facial fashion is not illegal (should be).

Obviously I work in a place of such right-on ness it would make your toes curl, but what about the Muslims in your office? Obsessed with religion or by matters more mundane?

 

The way to check is to shout out كل حائل الله خنزير الوردي رقيق and see which ones try to take you eyes out with a stapler

Report them for processing and internment

 

There are none. I'm retired. It would seem likely that none in your office are part of the 3000 then. But, given the law of averages, that's perfectly understandable.

 

That's a bit heavy for misuse of company equipment.

 

I see that there is a serious terrorism problem in the southern Philippines at the moment - strangely not mentioned on here by our local expert, PO.

Apparently Islamic State are using an "army" of children armed with guns and bombs to carry out atrocities in the name of Islam - hundreds maybe thousands are involved.

The terrorist demands? Nothing to do with bombing in the Middle East, nothing to do with the West. Merely demands that Sharia Law be imposed on the 70% Christian population.

Clearly, the perpetrators aren't following our threads or their leaders in the Middle East and just don't understand that the real issue is something completely different to what they think they are fighting for.