London Bridge

So what is it that I apparently don't get? Can you actually explain it to me, or are you worried that by doing so it would make you look small-minded and prejudiced?

 

Silly. Just say what you mean or on a day like today don't bother.

 

The world would be a better place if every Mosque , Synagogue and Christian church was repossessed and homes, schools and hospitals were built on the land , and the billions of money that these corrupt insititutions posses from thousand of years of robbing and manipulating their subjects, is used to raise the living standard of the poorest people on this planet.

And any idiots that want to worship a book of stories from 2500 years ago and believe those fables are factual can do it in their own home and at their own expense and hopefully the subjugation and manipulation of women and children that these religions advocate will be eradicated in one swoop.

People may say these terrorists don't represent their religion , but if organised religion didn't exist in the first place we wouldn't have these problems . So yes they do , they just happen to represent the most extreme element of the inherent bigotry and abuse of power all these institutions carry at their core .


This is why most political revolutions begin by advocating the complete dismantling of organised religious institutions, because anyone who has spent any time reading history knows the despicable history that these institutions hide .

In a few hundred years when the human race has evolved beyond this archaic level of existence we will look at this phenomenon of organised religion in the same way we look at the people who believe the world is flat. Which ironically some of these people still do .

 

Lloyd is like a lot of others who would like to imply that 'something' should be done about 'them', but doesn't actually want to do anything except stir the pot.

 

I've been to see John Pilger talk on multiple occasions, and have seen most of his films. On his website you linked, you can click on the video tab and watch them for free. I'd particularly recommend the ones about Vietnam, Cambodia and Iraq (the war you don't see). I've no idea what your political views are, so maybe he won't be for you. All I'd suggest is have a watch and make up your own mind rather than be swayed by opinion on here. I joined this forum to talk about Watford, so I'm not going to get involved in big issues such as these as it always ends in arguments and insults - just as this thread is descending into now.

 

How about as a starter for 10 taking away citizenship from the (reportedly) 400 muslims who went to Syria to fight for ISIS and came back. Where are they going to go? Who cares, not our problem. Send them to Assad. Or start up a penal colony on South Georgia.

 

You need to think through the implications of what you've posted.

You're advocating the wiping out of religions of the world, blaming them for the problems of this world. Didn't Hitler try that with Judaism? Won't forcing people to worship only in their own homes alienate even more people so that the terror threat increases? As soon as you try to force people not to believe and to express those beliefs in a communal setting, you become the evil oppressors. It is impossible to stop people believing, or do you see the world described in George Orwell's 1984 as the ideal, with 'thought police' patrolling our minds. And if organised religion is the problem, how do you explain the atrocities of the 'organised atheism' of Stalin in Russia, Mao in China or Pol Pot in Cambodia?

 

I agree we don't want them back, nor passporting Jihadis from Libya or anywhere else.

I'm not sure there is a mechanism for taking away citizenship though. They would be endlessly deported back to the UK from other countries. If we could make them truly stateless I'd not be against it.

So unless the process to do it can be worked out the alternative has to be a harsh penalty.

 

I am not blaming the police by any means. I am blaming our weak government. In today's society we are all surrounded by the idea of Political Correctness (PC) and with that in mind, people, including the government are scared to say or do anything that may potentially "offend" someone. It is so pathetic that people are so worried about being PC that it is becoming as much of an issue as terrorism, because as you cannot deny, the terrorist attacks in recent months have all been related to Islam and it's so plainly obvious that no political figure and the media can admit that by trying to de-sensitise it by claiming they are just the "few" out of many (although it is not related to terrorism, the Rochdale grooming gang comes into mind). Well, it is those few who are killing hundreds of people every week and it is those few who are likely to radicalise even more people to commit the same atrocities over and over again.

Therefore, what does the government do? Oh yes, they decide to make cuts in the Police Force at the worst possible time if i'm honest.

Regarding the Police's operations last night, they did fantastically in terms of response time and dealing with the threat immediately. However we cannot forget that there were 6 lives taken when all of those lives could have been saved if something was done before the terrorists could act. On top of that, the situation would have been completely different if the suspects were armed with guns and it is not an impossible thought that many of these animals do have access to firearms.

 

There might be something in his second paragraph. Daesh wants to drive a wedge between the western world and all Muslims, and I would guess they think the right wing parties of the world will do more to ensure that goal is achieved. It's not impossible they deliberately struck right before the election to try and influence the results.

If the implication was that the Tories were behind this then that's pretty risible without serious backing evidence, though. Real tin foil hat stuff.

On a more general note, 8 minute response time in a crowded metropolitan area like London is ******* outstanding. Props to the police, and especially to the brave officers who engaged with hand-to-hand and batons before the armed response teams arrived.

 

If we are to believe what's been said then there was no way they could have stopped this particular attack before it happened as they tell us they had no prior intelligence on the perpetrators or what was planned.

Yes you could say things are too "PC" these days but i'm not convinced this extends to the intelligence community. Again if we are to believe what we are told then they question and/or detain people on a regular basis and are monitoring thousands of others.
It sounds more like to me that they are being overrun with the current scale of this operation rather than they are being overly PC about it.

I thought the article i linked earlier was interesting.. in as much as there's been a shift in what Al-Qaeda & ISIS are instructing their followers to do. They have been telling them to attack in their home countries if they cant make it to Syria. A worrying development and one which would explain just how stretched our defenses have become.

 

When a suicide bomber blows up 22 young people as they leave a concert in Manchester, the one thing nobody must say is that there is any connection whatsoever with Islam. When a group of Muslim men hack large numbers of people to death in Borough Market the London Mayor immediately extols the peacefulness of Islam.


The problem cannot be Islam.


Personally I dislike this over-compensation and would like rather less of it. I dislike the fact that before the victims’ bodies have been identified in the morgue the local police are at the local mosque for a group hug. I dislike the politicians who, only hours after another Islamist atrocity, talk about how great it is that the violence has ‘brought us together’, so distracting attention from the corpses.


Only Islamic communities produce Islamic extremists. But, of course if you accept this clear fact you might have to weigh up the ongoing ‘cultural benefits’ of large-scale Islamic immigration versus the down-side of dozens of innocent people being blown up or hacked to death every now and then, and that might get awkward, eh?

I find this whole issue too annoying for words and debating it on here with people like you is no good at all for my blood pressure, so don't bother to respond - I shan't read it

 

Yeah well the rest of us are angry too and don't need your vague grasp of world events or queasy politics either. Twitter might be more your thing.

 

You know not what you write do you

 

If you're going to say it, say it with your chest you coward.

 

What's your point TVOR? I don't always need to believe what BBC or Sky News tells me. The same outlets that reported a girl who was safe and sound in Australia as missing after the Ariana Grande concert? Or the same news outlets that sweep it up under the carpet when 40 Muslims are blown up on the first day of Ramadan.



Isn't this totally out of line and inappropriate too?

 

There may not be a whole load of evidence to support it but if I choose to believe it I will. It's certainly not inappropriate or offensive to anyone that's for sure.

And yes, you will find it is a view held by many in the Muslim community because none of us bloody know one!! Do you know what me and 20 other young Muslims were doing last night at the time of the bombing? Playing One Touch, One Bounce outside Central Primary School on Derby Road as we killed time till sunrise.

 

or indeed any...

 

being generous, you could say its a fairly natural reaction to enter into a kind of denial when you feel like you're being attacked (or part of a group who are being attacked). you're still processing your thoughts and the actions and the easy way out, cognitively speaking, is to shut down the harsh stuff. i would suggest giving it a week or two i guess and then come back to it for a more rational response

 

Who's an Islamic "leader"?

It's funny you pick out a country which has many churches but avoid Saudi Arabia which doesn't even allow for the public practice of Christianity?

Indonesia has the highest percentage of Muslims in the world, who crusaded there? Simlarily to Malaysia where 61.3% of the population are Muslim? Nobody.

A line in the Quran "“So warn them: your only task is to warn, you’re not supposed to force them.”" - Simple as that, how could anyone read that, force someone to convert and say it's for Islam lol?

 

And the Daily Mail reporting someone screamed "This Is For Allah" is enough?

Anyway, this is all silly.

I find the timing coincidental, I find the targets baffling, if parliament was attacked or an attempted target I'd be inclined to agree it's ISIS. Has there even been an attempt to attack to Theresa or anyone who's responsible for the lives being lost in Syria etc? Doesn't seem like it.

Murdering someone who's enjoying a drink in a pub doesn't make sense. The first attacker was known to the government and funnily enough our former home secretary, just in time for her manifesto hiccup to be swept under the carpet.

You may not believe so but I will not apologise for believing that our government is capable of such evil. The same government that bombs and kills thousands of innocent children every single year.

P.S Smudger I don't think it's a personal attack on Islam for any reason other than it's the easiest target.

 

Heaven help us if you are the voice of a moderate "normal" Muslim. It explains some of the, in my view, really sickening things you have said around this subject in the past.

No wonder you balk at your community trying to help,

...but I hope that you are in the minority.

 

Haha what sickening things? This is the first I've heard of it.

What community? Are you part of a middle aged white man community? Do you all sit together and discuss things? Or share similar views?

Don't be so patronising.

 

I'm not being patronising, I'm being serious, you make me sick.

 

Haha avoid the other things I said though which clearly you have no answer too.

Make you sick based on what? The fact I dare have a differing view?

 

No, on the basis that your view is sick.

 

My view that I believe ISIS may be a Government made organisation? Or the fact that these attacks are engineered to enforce a political view?

Yet none of the Prime Ministers who sanction the deaths of hundreds and thousands of innocent kids make you sick?

I'm not disagreeing on the fact that the Manchester & London attacks were horrific and disgusting, you'd have to be a pretty dim human being to think otherwise, I'm questioning the legitimacy of the motive and offender. Why does that make me sick ZZ?

 

Look, I'm not discussing this matter any more with you.
Take it as a little "victory" if you want.

 

Considering you usually never shut up. I'll take that.

 

Yeah yeah yeah, and they never found any wings in the wreckage of the twin towers, it was the Jews what done it. **** sake. These were muslims. The **** in Manchester was a Muslim. They were muslims just as the ****wit Southern Baptists in the USA are Christians. And you are all, all of you, suffering from a mental illness. Even if their is a God/Yahwe/Allah, (there is not) he/she/it is a ****. Ask Stephen Fry. And not worthy of worship. So it would be better if all of those in power, who are not so stupid as to really believe in this ********, even if political expediency demands the pretence, to come out and say it.

Why is the ridicule of religion more off-limits than ridiculing climate change deniers ? Just as stupid and more harmful. **** 'em all.

I've been drinking.

 

I have no problem with anybody who thinks religion is stupid. There's certainly some compelling arguments sometimes, IE why is it adopted most in countries with poverty and low education levels, that's always a good one.

I choose to believe in a God / creator as I refuse to accept the world just fell into place. That's my reasoning.

Crack on, enjoy your evening!