Interesting. But the question still remains; would he be able to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke?
Question is would Stoke be able to get the ball ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]pgOxNoPHp5g[/yt] He is starting to approach Maradona in terms of his dribbling ability. Fair way to go though still. Pele making an idiot of himself as usual and as ever displaying sour grapes. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...l-messi?campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5739
Pele's statement: 'There is a big difference between Barcelona's Messi and Argentina's Messi. When Messi plays in the Seleccion he is not the same player' How is that making an idiot of himself? Its true! People rave about Messi scoring 50+ this season (which obviously is impressive), yet he scored none in last summer's World Cup. Massive contrast, no? Messi's Barca career stats: Played - 268 ... Scored - 179 ... Assists - 73 Messi's Argentina career stats: Played - 55 ... Scored - 16 ... Assists - 11 Thats 0.67 goals a game, compared to 0.29 goals a game. And 0.27 assists per game, compared to 0.2 per game.
I'll tell you why. When you have a clueless idiot in charge of the national team in this case Maradona. He picked inadequate players and played a formation quite unsuited to getting the best out of Messi. He selected Veron a player past it and quite out of touch in terms of tempo to Messi as the main playmaker over someone like Pastore who is suited to hs natural tempo. He thrust everything on Messi's shoulders then did not provide him with the system for him to flourish. For instance in the game / debacle against Germany he decided to forego the midfield by using di Maria and Maxi as central midfielders which is why di Maria had a tournament in which he was barely noticed. Messi had to continually drop deep for the ball using energy and allowing the Germans to field two banks of four continually as well as isolating him from Higuain and Tevez who did not bother to track back for once and further exacerbating the problem. Nonetheless his on target ratio was impressive. Prior to that he was saddled by an ultra cautious Basile with 3 defensive midfielders and in both instances fullbacks who were converted centrebacks. One Heinze a liability in terms of defence and speed. So without a fulcrum or wingbacks to open the pitch it made it easier for sides to defend in a compact formation. Under Batista who is still a charlatan of a coach he has employed attacking fullbacks , withdrawn Messi into a shadow striker mediapunta role and taken the playmaking role off him by using Banega as the deep playmaker and hopefully will employ Pastore as the advanced fulcrum which means Messi gets into the danger areas more and more often. Under Batistas regime he has scored against Brazil, Spain and Portugual albeit a penalty but he has created more oppurtunities for his teammates than ever before and assists. He has become a force to be reckoned with though the system and personell esp.at the back can definitely be improved something along the lines of : -----------------------Carrizo---------------------------- Zanetti---------Garay------------Rojo----------Ansaldi--- ----------------Mascherano------------------------------ ----------------------------------Banega---------------- ---------------------Pastore---------------------------- -----Messi------------------------------------di Maria---- ------------------------Higuain-------------------------- and you can throw on Aguero, Osvaldo, Lisandro ,Lavezzi ,Perotti etc etc as replacements. His career under Batista is starting to match his performances under Tocalli at the u20 level who was a tremendous coach. Pele talks nonsense all the time. He once suggested Nicky Butt was the best player in the England 2002 WC squad. Not to mention his goals record is a fallacy. A great player but he seems to unfortunately overshadow other greats like Garrincha who is the closest player in similarity to Messi as a dribbler and inside forward.
Bloody hell Zanetti must be about 50 now, I swear he was playing when I was a little kid! He's a proper player.
Forget Messi, what about the commentary on the video posted by Smudger a couple of posts back!?! Never heard anything like it! Now there is a true master of his art!
But Pele wasn't talking about the system and teammates, he simply said he's not the same player. All you have done is give reasons why he's not the same player. Sure formations and teammates haven't helped, but players can still perform well in a team that doesn't suit them. Also, you say the goalscoring is a fallacy, but the whole reason I used it as a reference is because you used it as reasoning earlier on in this thread! (I think you have also used it in another Messi discussion a while back too).
But that was the reason he was not performing in the team as he was at Barca SB. Pele misses the point entirely. Batista has perhaps also missed the same point by trying to force Argentina to play the same way as Barca. If you had a numpty like Maradona coaching Barca you would see Messi's efficacy as a player drop considerably. Even with a great player the system and personell around them has to be right in order for them to suceed. Maradona was a great player but he could not have suceeded as he did in '86 without a pair of solid centrebacks ie Ruggieri, a solid midfield anchored by Batista and creativity in midfield and upfront ie Valdano and Burruchaga Similarly at Napoli he has a couple of top Brazilians to help out ie Alemao and Careca though most of the sucess can be attributed to him. You look at Liverpool and how a few changes in personell and formation and management have changed a group of disparate mopers into a happy bunch of committed players. Luke yes Ray Hudson he does liven up commentaries. He used to wax lyrical over Riquelme now Messi gets him alive. :biggrin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]gS6Np-g_h5w[/yt] Who else gets Bernini into a commentary ?
Good effort LLST. Mine would be 'So who want's to be the next James Bond ?'. Interesting article on Leo which shows the sort of limbo he is in. Neither Catalan or Rosarian but seeking to establish himself back at home. In fairness at the last international match against Paraguay the crowd were shouting his name for much of the match: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=Lionel-Messi El Clasico finished 2-2 last night which leaves Barcelona still 8 points clear of Real Madrid. Atletico under Diego Simeone are tied with them on 19 points. The supposedly two best players in the world scored twice but for me Messi is still streets ahead of Ronaldo and I'd rather have Iniesta too. Leo seems to have been perfecting his free kicks. He is getting deadlier with them. [video=youtube;EDlNSE8qc8s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDlNSE8qc8s[/video]
This is so true. Messi is miles better than Ronaldo in every aspect on and off the pitch. I was at the game last night, it was a true privilege.
One for the teenagers..... After all the hoopla over who is better and should win the Ballon d'Or I think this week's international games should have laid that to rest. Ronaldo hardly inspired Portugual who lag behind Russia in qualification as well as Israel. Meanwhile in South America Messi was in superlative form scoring three and assisting one as Argentina took another two wins to head up the CONMEBOL qualifying group. He has now scored 14 goals in his last 14 games for Argentina, matched the great Batistuta's scoring record for a season with country and broken Gerd Muller and Pele's records for most goals in a season and calendar year. His sucess at international level has to be attributed to the new coach who has got Argentina performing as a unit. [video=youtube;q5ES9tHUNks]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5ES9tHUNks[/video] Try playing The Hives Tick Tick Boom instead of the dirge the video uploader has used. He has to be the best player on the planet. Anyone who say's Ronaldo needs their head examining.
[video=dailymotion;xv0pvp]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv0pvp_lionel-messi-los-76-goles-en-el-2012-supera-a-pele-i-emenderk_sport?search_algo=2#.UKqH26MnTz8[/video] Messi is now on 78 goals for the calendar year beating Peles record and just seven behind the all time record of legendary predator Gerd Muller . He still has eight games left to play this season after adding 2 more goals against Real Zaragoza and an assist as well on Saturday.
He closes in on the record. Two more goals and an assist against Spartak Moscow. He equalled Vivian Boardmans international goals in a season record too at 28 in total.
Could have easily had more last night, Barca took their foot off the pedal. Spartak were criminally wasteful as well, too many times their centre backs managed to find themselves in scoring opportunities and they always fluffed their lines. Casillas needs to take a look at himself after that dive!
Quickly becoming the best player i have ever seen. I hope he produces it at the world cup to cemen his place along side the greats
Ended up reading that whole article about Messi and his links to Rosario, really interesting article, thanks for that Smudger, really do enjoy your posts.
Cheers YK. Ah moog. He really is learning to pace himself now as he grows older. Does put in a defensive shift when required especially if he has lost the ball. Two more goals last night against Levante leaves him just 4 shy of Mullers all time record with 7 games left to go in 2012. And this despite not really being at his best for Barcelona in recent matches. Just a little sample of Messi magic for this year: [video=youtube;hKpgqinjecs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKpgqinjecs[/video] Hope we put in a bid for him soon. He can reunite himself with fellow Rosarians Battochio and Forestieri. The 3 little musketeers.
If you think that's good, you should see him for real. So many little things he does, that you don't see on TV. I would say he's the best player to have ever lived.
I would say there is a fair few that have managed it on the International stage ahead of him. Ronaldo, Zidane, and some other little known Brailian bloke and of course, Garrincha. Got to win the World Cup first.
Interesting you say that, he only won the Champions League once and only three league titles in his career. A lot of people say that the Champions League is now 'bigger' than the World Cup. So does winning the World Cup matter as much as it used to? Obviously to the ones that have won it, it does.
I would say that if you could play the top 10 club teams against the top 10 international sides, the club teams would prove the better sides. This makes the Champions League a much bigger achievement, to my mind. International sides have a limited pool of players by design. If someone were to say that the top international teams are better than the elite club sides (which can be build out of the very best players in the world regardless of nationality), I'd struggle to see their point.
I will never, ever understand this "he'll never be the best until he wins a World Cup" crap. It isn't on one person to win a World Cup, he could have an absolutely blinding tournament individually and it'd count for nothing if the rest of the team underperformed. What if he was from San Marino? Would it be impossible for him to be the greatest purely because he'll never have won a World Cup?
George Best and Ryan Giggs faced the same problem. Two immensely talented players but never got to play at major international tournaments.
