Gaza/Israel

I agree, football should not incite violence and is also taken too seriously at times, so it was a good analogy for me to use. But is it more ridiculous to fight over football than religion? No....neither should incite violence.

Football is far more emotive and I can see why pockets of violence flair up at times. But nobody has gone to war over Barcelona beating Manchester United. Religion is far more passive (or rather should be). History would dictate more people have died because of religious beliefs than of following a football club.

 

HB, are you a bit simple?

 

Well not necessarily. This is only your opinion that it should be more passive. And obviously you'd think that, seeing as you're an atheist and hold a certain set of views, etc. etc. For a lot of people in the world their connection with God (whether you believe it or not) is the most powerful thing in their life. This is a fact. Football and religion are comparable in some ways, but the analogy falls apart once you consider them both in any sort of depth.

 

Football can cause a war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War

 

Bit stupid comparing football to religion?

Put it this way - my religion states homosexuality is not approved and to be fair I find it pretty unnatural (a separate debate altogether) anyway just because my religion tells me it is wrong does not mean I go and shout at every 'gay' in the street? Or don't work with gay people? Or turn off my TV because Syed and Christian are on it?

People like that are 'extremists' and rightfully so because they are taking their religion to the extreme. Thankfully they are a minor amount and the majority are peaceful.

 

I take it you do not like to my point of view.

 

I can appreciate differing points of views mate, just don't like the way you go about putting yours across in this particular debate. That's all.

 

Some good points made. But this is what I was saying right at the very beginning. Religion is used as a screen to hide behind. Certain aspects are taken too literally or have been interpreted in such a way that a total distortion has been made. This is so violent leaders can provoke follows to do their dirty work.

Religion is not evil per se, but it can be used for evil purposes as it is a good method to whip up large groups of people into a frenzy. You say the majority are peaceful, which is probably true, but it's the minority that does incredible damage.

 

I can understand that, and that's fine. If nothing else, I hope what I say challenges people. My personal view is if it provokes healthy debate it's a good thing. Maybe one or two points have made people stop and think a little about a certain subject?

I know it has me think about things differently. I love the alternate views, and the commitment each person brings to it. For me it's actually quite a nice change from talking football for once.

 

Many would argue it is intrinsically evil and that the vast majority of some religions are evil and morally wrong. Christopher Hitchens has a very good book "God is not great: How religion poisons everything" which argues this point. For example he says Christianity is inherently evil due to the abuse of children by telling them they're going to hell and the fear it produces and coercion, and the monopoly Islam and Judaism seemingly have on child genital mutilation.

He mainly argues for the religious to keep their beliefs private, and separate from any public policy, and for children to be protected from indoctrination. Obviously being the intelligent man Christopher is he argues it very well and it's well worth a read.

 

Hmm and the children of today are so well behaved.

 

Do you actually know what religion is? You were just going on about how people take it too seriously, yet you think football is far more emotive?

For people who follow a religion properly, it is because the agree on pretty much all of the important questions in life, such as creation, death, good, evil, love, the meaning of life. Whether they are wrong or not doesn't change the fact that it is fundamentally their beleifs about the most emotional subjects there are in life.

Or maybe I'm being offensive and you just really *****ing love football.

 

You didn't understand the word emotive and the context it was used. Football is emotive because it creates an emotional reaction of high intensity, an adrenalyn rush. The same could be said of many other sports. This emotional reaction sometimes overspills and violence is the end result.

I would say religion is far more passive than sport, especially football. Do you get an adrenalyn rush by going to church or a mosque? It's not to say you don't have an emotional connection with your place of worship, but I would say you are more likely come out of a place like this feeling relaxed and spirtually lifted, rather than pumped up as you would after a football match.

 

Aren't you simplifying religion a tad - different people get different things. Some enjoy the sense of community, some need a faith whilst going through a personal battle, some need rules to abide by and some want to understand the scriptures. Who are we to tell an individual what to believe in

 

You can't argue with proper research like this.

 

As a Christian and a bible believing one. The views a certain people/person has stopped me enjoying this forum and made me stay away, which is a real shame as I now have nobody to be excited about Watford with.

 

The bloke on Question Time (Owen Jones) annoyed me so much on this subject last night, and reminded me why i don't watch that shambles of a program. Very uninformed and opinionated. One of those people who believes only his version of events and shouts down anyone who argues against it. Wrapped up in his own stupid little Liberal world. Utter tool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Jones_(writer)

 

I've said all I wanted to say about it to be honest, I told you exactly what I thought and have nothing in particular to add.

I don't think you will find many people actively supporting either side firing rockets anywhere. As far as I am concerned, two wrongs don't make a right. But, Palestine in general are on a hiding to nothing and after 60 years this is all many Palestinians - and Israelis - know. What do they do, just give up their land? Say 'OK Israel, here you go. Take it.'? Criticism always seems to fall upon Palestinians for not just rolling over and accepting what the international community thrust upon them. Were we in their shoes I don't think we would be reacting any differently and while I certainly don't condone any of the violence we could go on for years naming all the attacks and atrocities committed by both sides. I think once you begin to justify supporting one side on the basis of their attacks you are just perpetuating the never ending cycle of violence. There will be a list twenty miles long for both sides regarding horrible war crimes, attacks on civilians, things caught on camera, it doesn't solve anything. What is the proposal, to tally up each attack and then the person with the least wins supremacy?

Why honour the peacefire if you are in the shoes of Hamas? Israel aren't going to suddenly turn around and say 'oh here you go, we are going to negotiate with you now.' There isn't anything in it for them, they gain nothing from it. If they honour it and give up, all that happens is Israel stay put and the Palestinians lose their land. Don't confuse what I'm saying for supporting terrorism by either side, but if we were in the shoes of the Palestinians I don't think we would be reacting any differently and I think a certain amount of criticism comes from ivory towers. It is easy to sit thousands of miles away and criticise, far more difficult if you put yourself in that situation. I think that is why I like to disassociate my thinking from current events, because current events are cyclical and change nothing. It certainly isn't as black and white as 'Hamas broke the ceasefire, thus they are evil'. I like to justify my thinking by looking at the origins of it and deciding where the fault lay there, as that is where the criticism should really be aimed. We are just seeing the results of Palestine being thrust into a situation that it had nothing to do with by the international community, a bunch of Zionists and centuries of anti-Semitism.

Now in terms of current affairs I am loathe to really criticise Israel either simply because many are 3rd generation (at least) Israelis whose family have been there for many decades. Quite simply, Israel is now their country too, they are not migrants, they did nothing wrong, they were simply born like the rest of us. The actions of people seven decades earlier are entirely separate just like modern Germans are from Nazis. There is no intrinsically evil side and if a person starts to think that, their judgement becomes irrelevant.

I think the 'right' thing to happen would be for the whole area to return to being Palestine under elected government with neither Arabs nor Jews claiming territorial dominance on the basis of religion or anything else. Obviously that ship sailed long ago, but to be honest I don't think there is any other option. I just hope one day a line will be drawn where they say that they have fought the battles of their great-grandparents long enough and it is time to act as though it is the 21st Century and live together in peace, as they did for centuries before the Zionist push for Israel began.

 

He spends his days retweeting stuff that he agrees with on Twitter

 

Jesus Christ......
Did you get that off the edl website?

 

Ain't no party like a catholic party

 

No, facebook :xmascheesy:

 

I doubt the ELD would be shouting about how Western countries are the ideal home for muslims.

 

You ask me to stop posting because I ruin good threads (below).....then you post this.....hmmmm. Hypocrisy is not a concept you're familiar with I gather.

Nonetheless.....I enjoyed reading this....so I won’t be asking you to stop posting.

 

He was very annoying, but he also made some important points.

It's facile to pretend this current outbreak emerged from sudden spontaneous aggression from the Palestinian side only.

 

I'm perfectly happy here you ****ing ignorant ****** (bar the rubbish weather) so not only are you offending me but also 1000's of other people who are happy in the UK. People in the Arab countries are getting murdered by leaders for no reason with no rights or any ounce of civilization.

Finally, what does that picture have anything to do with this thread.

 

The picture says Muslims are happy here.

 

To be fair, I've been to Egypt, Morocco, Malaysia and Kenya (many parts of which are predominantly Muslim) and there were lots of happy people there.

Hungry oppressed people are rarely happy whichever their religion.

 

I'm going to close this thread if it ends up going down this route, and it's starting too.

So keep it Gaza/Israel related.

 

I just think it's ironic that Israel of all countries is pursuing a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

 

Zzzzzx, go back and read the last 11 pages and try to educate yourself before writing dross.

 

I lost interest on page one after reading about how much Israel helps Palestine. :sign12:

Ethnic cleansing is the removal of an ethnic group of people from a geographical area fyi, it's what the allies did with ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after WWII.

 

As I said, if you go back and read the last eleven pages rather than giving up on page one then you may learn things, about both sides of the divide, from people who have a far greater insight into the region then you currently have

 

Which is still only their opinion, as is mine, from a pro-Israeli stand point. It doesn't make theirs any more valid than mine as it is coloured by their experience. I tend to get my information from books, TV and newspapers rather than what I read from internet forums.