I know this will be censored and the white liberals will be choking in their soy latte. Anywho . You know these health workers from poor countries that treat you wokey wokes in your private hospital in affluent areas ? Don't poor countries need Drs and nurses ? Can poor countries afford to train Drs and nurses only to lose them to rich western countries? There is a mother in the Philippines whose child needs medical help but their health professionals are over here treating the Good the Great and the Woke . Nothing going the other way . Attn. Wokey wokes . Justify this .
Have to return to this notion that it’s the wokey wokes who use Private Hospitals. Other than a few luvvies, private medicine is always going to be the preserve of the wealthy and the wealthy in this country are largely conservative. The landowners, the bankers, hedge funders, the nobility, the upper ranks, the owners, conservatives. I’d imagine the Venn diagram of people bemoaning the loss of international medics and nurses to their countries and those against foreign aid to be a pretty close fit. And what’s this problem with beverages? Never protest beverages. It’s just a cup of coffee, not a manifesto. Down with delicious alternatives, isn’t a great rallying cry.
What private hospitals? Moose is spot on. And it's worth remembering we had a pretty good thing going until recently, where medics from equally wealthy Western Europeam countries were attracted to work in our NHS hospitals. For some reason that flow was almost totally interrupted. And now we're left preying on the world's poorer countries for the same staff. Anyone know why?
I think the point is that the isn't a finite supply of doctors and nurses. If the are better job opportunities then more will train. More trained figures in the world is good.
I was at a 'thing' where a Dean of a medical school described the state of the UK's medial/dental/nursing educational system as a very cost-effective* system for sustainably staffing the Australian health-care system. *For the Ozzies.
What about @Moose ? I'm talking about a poor mother from a poor country with a sick child who needs professional medical help.
Stop stealing professional people from poor countries to treat our sick on the cheap . Because poor countries can't afford to fund treating your gout and their sick children . Whodathunkit ?
Actually . Hands up all you wokey woke be nice merchants who think that their health is more important than someone from a poor country. All of you who think this ....raise your hand ... I'm guessing none of you will stand up and say .... "ME" So let's see ....
That’s not even near an answer unless you propose that elderly Brits go without care. Is that what you propose?
There are many countries around the World that have much younger populations than us and surplus labour. It can also be good for them to get experience here to take home. Obviously, it would be desirable to train more UK workers to do health roles, but this is where nationalists want it all. It would take an eye-watering sum of money to raise the bar on health professions and tempt Brits from other careers. Most immigration sceptic, right wing people won’t do that either. They hate the trade unions too, so neutralise the only force that can press for higher standards. Moreover, if you wanted to avoid ‘stealing’ healthcare workers from poor countries, you had a very good system going with the EU, where we had a good supply of health workers who could come and go, which you trashed. Brexiteers then voted for the Tories, who were never going to fix health and social care. Pure vandalism. Your high and mighty attitude is out of line on this one. This is on Brexiteers, Tories and their fantasies. And now all they have left is hostility to migrants, who we need. So now we are in a mess and older people need care. What would you do?
In addition, as we get poorer and the conditions in the NHS worsen, we are hemorrhaging health workers to the likes of Australia and NZ at an ever alarming rate. It's not "ideal" to take health workers from other nations but, as you say, many will benefit from the additional experience and training they receive here that could, ultimately, benefit their home nation. But I guess we could close the doors, make professional health care only available to the wealthy and let the rest of us get treatment from the barbers, like the "good old days".
Oooh, I think I know this one. Go to the pub, get drunk, come home tanked up an belligerent, hop online, find some people online to throw word salad passive aggressive non-sequiturs at, proclaim self as the only one who cares, blame everything broken in the world on "wokie wokes", abandon thread until next time sloshed after leaving a pub?
National Service - Health. Train up the workforce in health care, post education, and put them on a ten year reserve for national and international emergencies. Could even include over seas involvement, to redress the imballance..
This is pure simplism. A beguiling, "common sense" idea that doesn't stand up to the slightest examination. To what level of care would this standby workforce be trained to? And who would pay? According to a report commissioned by Civitas in 2015, it costs £51,000 to train one nurse. That's bound to be considerably more expensive now. If they were called up eight years into their spell on the reserve list, they'd presumably need a refresher course of some kind before being pressed into action, because, y'know, people working in health have to know what they're doing and be well up to date with best practice. You'd advocate pumping money into training up a workforce of healthcare workers and then only call on them in an emergency? What's the point? Why not just fund a health system that provides quality care for all in the first place? After all, what's the point of being alive if we can't look after ourselves and each other?
All your points are fair to make. I’m not saying you are wrong, but I do disagree with you. I think it would create a positive national mindset, and be an entry point for the health service for people that may not otherwise consider such a vocation. They wouldn’t have to train to AHP levels, but rather HCA, with an option to progress at the end of it. It could also provide credits for an AHP qualification. There is no suggestion in what I said that implies that any participant would be booted out at the end and only used in emergency. I first got the idea when I was talking to an MP who was suggesting that National Service would train up military personnel who could be called on in a similar manner. I suggested that training them as healthcare staff may be more effective. I doubt very much that call up would seriously affect those other than willing volunteers. The reserve function would be used to notify people of a situation, and to secure jobs whilst they are active and not to force a person’s arm. And I’d suggest that those who had done the thing would probably be better at looking after themselves and others than the current population. So I think your comment there answers itself. And I see no reason why it shouldn’t be a catalyst to a refocused healthcare system.
Well done arakel . Espousing a bunch of luxury beliefs that help no one except those with a few bob? Not saying you have a few bob but if I were a betting man .... You struggling to pay the bills ?.....
Regular as clockwork with a series of non-sequitur arguments dressed up as concern for other people. The politics of envy really is a stain on Britain and all it does is actively lay the foundations which enable the mega-wealthy to continue to exploit us all.
This is the weakness in Brexit politics. The pretence that we can do anything we choose and it will work out. No matter what the local or World circumstances are. No need to worry about our demographic time bomb of older people, say people who can afford private care. We should train more UK care staff, say people who want to make the state smaller and keep care wages down. How does a pro hard Brexit Government deal with the inevitable disappointment from promising so much and delivering so little? Find targets to hate, migrants, transgender people, Gary Lineker, anything you’ve got. Bully Nation disgraces itself with naive politics of Nationalist resentment.
TBF we've known about the UK's demographic timebomb for over three decades. It'll be interesting to see whether 'EUK' generation (kids who came over with their EU parents post-2000 or those born to those EU parents in the UK) will follow in their parents' footsteps and have 'kids' or follow the UK habit of putting off parenthood (usually until it's 'too late') - I know which one I would put money on....
Am I wrong in thinking that immigration has gone through the roof since Brexit. In which case this argument appears to be entirely redundant. Making an old argument that has and continues to be proven wrong to argue against Brexit seems futile. You are arguing an idealogical point that isn't an issue anymore. It simply doesn't exist. Again. We have record immigration since Brexit. I have to ask. What is the point of your argument?
It’s really not hard. Brexiteers promised we could have it all, economic growth, low migration, but the first thing they did was tank the economy with a hard Brexit. So the Government then makes hasty trade deals and encourages skilled workers to come with the hope of kick-starting the flatlining economy, incentivising employers by allowing them to be paid less. The inevitable consequence is, record migration while the economy remains poor. How do you keep frothy Brexiteers onside through this failure to deliver their dreams? By supplying a steady stream of enemies, the civil servants, the courts, migrants, refugees, people who welcome refugees, transgender people, people on benefits, the woke, all the enemies within… That’s all that is left of the Brexit political project. Unable to cope with the real World. It simply has division to offer. Everything is cope.
Thanks for explaining, but given the lack of evidence that Brexit is any more responsible for our woes than those of Germany, or any other European nation in the midsts of COVID/Ukraine War recovery, I'll have to assume that Brexit has demonstrably not played the part you suggest. Fair opinion. Just not very convincing when applied to the real world, and other countries that exist outside of the remainer bubble. I don't agree with your assesment of people's attitudes to Brexit either. They seem more like a remainer's idea of wish fulfilment than reality, as in 'I really hope this is how you all feel,' rather than logical deduction.
As it seemed a main incentive for many to vote ‘Leave’ was a dramatic reduction in the level of immigration, then I would think they’d be wondering why the EU is still to blame.
The consensus is that Brexit hasn't been done "properly" yet. However, explaining what "properly" actually means, beyond "less foreigners", seems to allude them! They definitely knew what they were voting for though....
I think they are blaming the UK government, actually. I may not feel that France is particularly worried about it, even that they are glad of having us as a pressure valve, but I wouldn't blame them for doing so. All it does is prove to us their attitude towards neighbouring countries. The only people responsible for our failures on immigration are ourselves. There is no point in blaming anyone else. And I am not sure that, when it comes down to it, we are blaming anyone but the tories.
And got it! Leave or remain. It was that simple. That is what it said on the tin. If you voted leave, you got everything that you voted for. Just a pity that the side that didn't get what they voted for are incapable of dealing with their failure. And that still, seven years later, when all of their worst predictions have failed to manifest themselves, are having to invent fantasy concepts of what leavers really wanted in order to claim some sort of moral victory over the other side. It, surely, is time to let go.
That is definitely true of the present situation, but ‘control immigration’ seems to have been one of the many proclaimed benefits of Brexit which seem to have proven illusory. And there is no doubt ‘the EU’ was positioned centre stage as the main culprit of ‘excessive immigration’ during the debate. It could be argued that being in the EU actually kept a lid on the numbers arriving legally, but I suppose that doesn’t fit the narrative.
This ignores the fact that so many people who voted leave now wail about ‘this is not the Brexit I voted for’. Maybe you should address your educational statements to them.
