The Premier League - 2020/21 - All Match Discussion In Here

I think they would have, in effect, "B teams" in the Premier League. They would still have a huge financial advantage though..... assuming the new league is popular with fans and TV.

If it's as dull, as I suspect it will be, it may end up not getting the TV revenue and advertising endorsements that it thinks it will. The EPL could end up still being where the bulk of the money goes!

 

This is all pretty exciting isn’t it? There’s surely no putting the genie back in the bottle now.

Best case scenario, we get a reset on English football with no ‘big six’. The real fans of the big six start Phoenix clubs in the non league.

Worst case scenario, UEFA and the Premier League go soft, let them remain in domestic leagues and ‘have their cake and eat it’ as has been said a few times. Closed shop on the champions league, fixture chaos and daft timings to suit American audiences.

In the case of the latter, that’s the ripping off of the plaster for me. Bye bye football. I’ll use the spare time gardening and finally learning to play the bass properly.

 

Yeah there's no chance that 'Qatar Sports Investments'-owned PSG haven't signed up for "noble" reasons.

Along with the BeIn Sports thing, PSG will probably also be concerned about how they may be impacted by the suggested limits on spending in the proposed league, as well as maybe licking their wounds from the fact that it appears a coalition of US and European interests have acted together to create this new venture and put themselves at the top table (thus perhaps limiting the future influence of the oil/oligarch-funded clubs) - Florentino Perez will be Chairman of the League, with Joel Glazer and Andreas Agnelli the Vice-Chairmen, and the whole thing seems to be backed by JP Morgan.

They will surely agree eventually though, 3 of the intended permanent clubs have yet to be announced and they'll surely be one of them.

The other 2 spots are also surely placeholders for Bayern and Dortmund, with them still requiring some agreement from fan groups.

If none of those 3 sign up, and the league still goes ahead, they'll be left behind financially; but they'd surely cave.

 

Quite. The fact is, the Premier League has, for some time, been a rigged game.

In the old times, Leicester winning the league would have been an achievement because you'd overcome a deficit in fan revenue, of say 30-40% maximum over a larger club.

Nowadays you have the likes of Watford, West Brom and Norwich expected to compete against teams whose star player costs the same as a whole squad.

The issue is already there. We all exist to be whipping boys for the 'big 6' except sometimes, upstarts like Leicester and West ham forget their station and upset the applecart.

Let them go. The CL already pours money into their greedy pockets. If it kills football then it was always going to happen.

There will be a hundred million armchair, merchandise wearing 'fans' to support this competition and satisfy sponsors. It won't be a sport though.

 

I’d not seen this in case anyone else hasn’t:


The league will have 20 teams - the 12 founding members plus the three unnamed clubs they expect to join soon, and five sides who qualify annually according to their domestic achievements.

Under the proposals, the ESL campaign would start in August each year, with midweek fixtures, and the clubs would be split into two groups of 10, playing each other home and away.

The top three in each group would qualify for the quarter-finals, with the teams in fourth and fifth playing a two-legged play-off for the two remaining spots.

From then on, it would have the same two-leg knockout format used in the Champions League before a single-leg final in May at a neutral venue.

The ESL said it would generate more money than the Champions League and would result in a greater distribution of revenue throughout the game.

So you could actually qualify for it but 15 of the 20 teams are fixed.

 

What would a 12 point deduction achieve? These clubs don't need to qualify for Europe and wouldn't be relegated with such a small deduction. If they are to go ahead with this there is no way they can continue in the Premier League. These clubs would have an extraordinary financial advantage.

 

I can’t find evidence of him saying this online but apparently Daniel Levy actually said after we won the league something along the lines of ‘we can’t have another Leicester’.

I’m finding this quite hilarious to be honest. I can’t wait to see what happens.

 

Yes, and the obvious flaw is that one of the 5 "qualifying teams" could win it and still not have a right to compete in it the following year. Meanwhile Arsenal could finish bottom in their group without winning a game and would still be in it the following year.

It will be a joke of a "competition".

 

The trouble with having 15 fixed teams, is that without the threat or relegation or the fight for qualification/promotion it all becomes a bit pointless. It's like a glorified invitation tournament. Who's bothered about those?

Domestic football will become meaningless for all those clubs that are fixed in the Super League. Why would the 6 English clubs they care about the Premier League anymore? Maybe just use it to fine tune their team for the big Super League games. There would also be a big push to reduce the Premier League as well. No way will they want to play a 38 game season.

These top 6 would quickly gain super squads. Sponging up every player worth having. If you sign for Spurs, you sign for the Super League as a guarantee. The entire concept is flawed. Sure it's good for club owners, with their short-sighted look at the profit margin, but without the fans the game is nothing. Football is in real danger of killing itself with this proposal. Fans will switch off in their droves and the big money will go away very quickly if no one is watching.

 

Most of this must be due to the American ownership that has come into our sport? American sports have some good points like salary caps etc, but equally no relegation, so the cash is constantly ring fenced forever. This constant drive to ring fence cash for the top clubs and remove any peril of ever losing it has to come from them.

 

Yep, and the five teams that can qualify is not them doing anyone any favours, it’s just enabling them to leave the door open for new teams that might make the league more attractive. They’ll be able to change who these five teams are if they want, and how they qualify.

 

I suspect any qualification will include clauses that demand certain international popularity. I imagine the likes of Leeds will be welcome but I can't see the likes of us, Norwich etc ever being welcome however well we do domestically.

 

Why do you think it will be dull? Can’t really see how it would differ in entertainment value from the Champions League and will probably be more competitive given fewer “smaller” teams.

 

The really short sighted thing, is that turnovers rocket, but so do the costs. If Spurs get 300m a season in TV money, so do all the other SL teams and so they need to compete on fees and wages. So they end up spending 400m and taking debts.

Its idiotic. They will end up paying the same, elite players 1m a week instead of 500k and the rest of football, including clubs, players and fans gets stiffed. I'm sure their 'facilities' will also get world class upgrades, so we'll see training grounds like Las Vegas resorts and other such nonsense that pundits will drool over, but the offering on the pitch will stagnate.

Also, you'll see 'big' clubs from non elite leagues (Greece, Turkey, Ukraine etc.) No longer getting a chance to compete with their once in a generation sides which can ruffle the feathers of the oligarchy.

It's just anti competition and anti sport.

 

I don’t think I’ve ever watched a champions league game so it would be dull to me, I can’t see how it would be anymore or less entertaining to fans of these clubs than the champions league already is, other than maybe getting tedious playing the same 14 teams every season?

 

Because, without jeopardy, many of the games will be meaningless.

I also don't see an increase in entertainment when the "bigger teams" play each other. How often does Sky/BT hype up a game between the "top 6" for it to be a dull game with both sides nullifying each other?

I'm sure the plastic armchair fans will watch it and, with the US and China interest, it will probably make a lot of money. But I think many of the games will be dull and, in some cases, totally meaningless.

 

I guess it depends on your tastes.

If you enjoy the clash of different football cultures, the best teams in smaller leagues having the chance to compete and improve, and the winners of the competition having done so by establishing their dominance over as wide and fair a competition as possible, it's dull.

If you believe football exists only amongst the sort of teams whose fake shirts are sold at tourist booths in Oxford Street and you get off on seeing Man Utd and Barcelona facing off all the time, because they are such huge brands, then it's great.

 

A few years back the end of football as we know it would've really bothered me. Not anymore. I don't enjoy our role in the Premier League as fodder for the big teams. I don't enjoy a player like Richarlison having half a good season and then being bought by someone else - it means you have to want your new signings to be a maximum of 6 or 7 out of 10 every game otherwise they'll just leave. I don't enjoy knowing that we'll never win a trophy and the height of our ambition is to finish in the top ten, something we couldn't achieve in five years. I don't like the club being plunged into a mountain of debt just to be able to sit at the Premier League table. I don't enjoy the ridiculous implementation of VAR.

In its purest sense, football is the greatest sport there is. But everything surrounding the upper echelons of it stinks.

 

Yeah, this is the big elephant in the room when you look at reforms of football. Without implementing salary caps any money gets sucked up in wages and transfer and agent fees.

 

The only sad thing for me is the end of 120 years of tradition in this country.

Like @a19tgg I've never watched CL games. I disagreed in principle with that as an oligarchical money go round, serving only to help the top club in each league preserve their elite status by giving them an unfair advantage at home.

The fact that a club like Burnley, or us, or even Muff, could put together a side and make it to the Premier League and whilst not dream of doing a Leicster, at least bloody a few noses and take some scalps on the way to a 13th place finish, was at least something.

This next step essentially says all football apart from 'big six' which is a completley unmerited cabal, is secondary and thus, will form some sort of minor role in breeding players and feeding the SL.

It's disgusting.

The real sad thing is, that fans of all the other clubs will still buy the TV packages and contribute to the viewing figures of the new competition, no matter how cancerous it is for their own club, just as they have done for CL and EPL.

 

Was this story broken 'early' by the NYT and thus the relatively hurried statement by this new League late last night? Or were they gonna announce it anyway?

If the former, I wonder if the League was hoping to sign on more teams before news broke or at least waiting until the end of season.

 

Exactly. I just cannot see it working on any level and under the current proposal. It has to be an open door, with no fixed clubs. You cannot have one league with no relegation, clubs are in it by invitation and there's only one prize. It just will not work. The money is only there because people sign up to watch. If fans do not like the concept it will very quickly be scrapped.

So you are guaranteed 10 games, but only 2 can qualify to the next stage. What then for the other clubs in the SL? That's it. Not allowed to play domestic football and players not allowed to play in international tournaments as the price to pay. It's just not going to happen if FIFA and UEFA stick to their guns.

 

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56795811

Fan groups associated with all six English clubs involved are strongly opposed to the Super League.

Liverpool supporters' group Spirit of Shankly (SOS) said it was "appalled" by the decision of Fenway Sports Group, the club's US-based owner.

In a social media post, SOS said: "FSG have ignored fans in their relentless and greedy pursuit of money. Football is ours, not theirs. Our football club is ours not theirs."

Chelsea Supporters' Trust called the move "unforgivable" and said its members and "football supporters across the world have experienced the ultimate betrayal".

The Arsenal Supporters' Trust called the club's agreement to join "the death of Arsenal as a sporting institution".

Manchester City's Official Supporters Club said the move showed "those involved have zero regard for the game's traditions", adding it was "determined to fight against this proposed Super League".

The Manchester United Supporters' Trust had earlier said the proposals were "completely unacceptable" and the ESL "goes against everything football, and Manchester United, should stand for".

Tottenham Hotspur Supporters' Trust said the ESL was a "concept driven by avarice and self-interest at the expense of the intrinsic values of the game we hold so dear".

 

18 guaranteed games.

 

I reckon there are still a number of differing scenarios.

For one thing, I'm not entirely convinced that this isn't a huge negotiating ploy by the big clubs because they're still unhappy with UEFA's proposed changes to the structure of the Champion's League - albeit, I reckon they'll go through with this threat of creating the Super League unless UEFA hugely bend over backwards and give them more control of the CL.

Within all this criticism about this just being driven by the so-called "greed" of the big clubs, one silver-lining is that UEFA and FIFA must be absolutely bricking it. Let's not forget that UEFA and FIFA have been holding control over the top foot and football clubs while riding the gravy train, being slow to develop the competitions, being ineffective in meting out punishment and giving little back. Let's not forget they've been headed by Sep Blatter and Michel Platini, and have signed up to host the next World Cup in Qatar. UEFA's Financial Fair Play regulations have also been a complete farce.

It's really no surprise that the top clubs would want to rid themselves of their influence.

UEFA will surely now have to quickly offer more concessions to the big clubs in order to try and keep them on board, or else they will soon end up an irrelevance. For instance, they could offer the clubs the majority control over the television rights deals, and make a certain number of CL spots guaranteed based on the club coefficient system (as opposed to only the last season's league position).

The latter concession would then continue to enable new teams entering the competition each year, while also still providing enough of the big clubs to have slightly more predictable revenue streams over the next few seasons (as the coefficient system more slowly evolves, rather than lurches season to season). Perhaps the biggest downside to top-level football as a business model from the perspective of owners and investors is how much of the revenue can change rapidly year-to-year based on the relative minutiae and unpredictability of say finishing 4th vs 5th.

This still may not be enough to make the clubs back down though.

A final related point, with UEFA having been so weak on FFP, and with costs continuing to spiral at the top clubs (in part due to oligarch-influence), the breakaway Super League may also be used by the clubs as an opportunity to control costs more closely and also provide further financial predictability.

 

It’s going well then.

 

I’d go as far as to bet the SL clubs would have a head coach and squad for the SL, and a different head coach and squad for their domestic league/cups. As with the current first and reserve team setups

You could have Man City in the SL managed by Pep, while Man City domestically are managed by Eddie Howe (or someone else seen as up and coming and marketable domestically).

 

My point was that I don’t think it will be any duller than the existing competition. If you already find that dull then you will find this dull but clearly millions still tune in worldwide and I can’t see why that would change.

There’s not much jeopardy in the existing CL, at least in the group stages. A Celtic or Rangers could consistently finish 3rd or 4th in the group but will be back the next year if they qualify.

Moog’s point about clash of cultures is interesting. I do watch some CL - not avidly, but I do quite enjoy watching occasional matches in different European countries (I’m never very interested in home English fixtures). But thinking about it, I do tend to gravitate to matches between “bigger” teams so the weeding out of “smaller” ones wouldn’t make much difference to me as a viewer. But I can see that it might to some, and the principle that the champions of Greece or of Romania should get a crack at beating a “big” team is worth preserving.

This is a small point though. The impact on the domestic game is the key issue here.

 

It will "B teams" in all but name. I can see the teams at the bottom of the SL playing their better players in their domestic competitions when there is nothing to play for in the SL and "blooding" young players in the SL. It will be a joke.

 

As ever when I become irate at the governance of tennis I look across the fence at football and count my blessings.
Football became Faust long ago.
When did Keith Burkenshaw say about Tottenham "there used to be a football club over there",the '80s?
The advent of the PL has accelerated the demise and the behaviour since and the pandemic has hastened the greed from the biggest clubs.
Will the authorities remove the relevant clubs from their domestic leagues?
Highly unlikely. They have no spine.
Agnelli takes the biscuit saying Atalanta shouldn't gain access to the higher table as they have only had "one good season".
Score flash from Serie A yesterday Atalanta 1 Juventus 0.
Show some backbone football and kick them out now or as Filbert Fancy Fox says it becomes a charade.

 

Whatever the number, it would still be a vastly reduced season if clubs and players are only allowed to play in the Super League.

I think this is one step away from it becoming a closed shop European league, rather than a thinly disguised cup competition. Without promotion or relegation, and you only get in by invitation.

These clubs could do it for sure. The money will entice them, but the cost would be a very high one. Killing football for short term gain.

 

I sincerely hope we don't get promoted.

I miss the days when football was about football.

 

Hmm, the NFL and NBA have salary caps - from what I've seen so far I wouldn't be surprise if the Super League had one as well. The cap would still be waaay out of reach for clubs limited to the domestic leagues though of course.

NBA has salary caps both per team and per player, with this being agreed upon every season and based off league revenue.

 

You're right that UEFA and Fifa are the tyrannical Richard II in this scenario, but these Lords Appellant, rebelling and setting up the SL are not going to share any new power and wealth with the peasantry.

We'll get a new power balance between UEFA/FIFA and the mega clubs, but no changes are going to be for the benefit of the thousands of other clubs or millions of fans.

 

I think the jeopardy in the CL is that there is no guarantee that you will be in it the following year (see Liverpool).

But I guess it is a matter of taste. I don't watch the CL. I don't care how the English teams do like I did back when it was the European cup and "our teams" playing these exotic continental teams was a novelty.

I would much prefer to watch a league 1 game with teams chasing promotion or trying to avoid the drop tbh.

But I accept for most people, especially internationally, watching Real Madrid Vs Barcelona for the umpteenth time, to see who comes 5 or 6, is more appealing than watching Rochdale trying to save their League 1 status.