I think you are the first person to make this point. Judging whether we faded or not is complicated by the presence of the opposition. Warnock, like us, had very little idea how we were going to play. But, with his 40+ years of coaching experience, soon shifted people around to counter our early inventiveness.
Got the win, plenty to build on. Disappointed that the shoutbox chat at half time was mainly about football. If we keep half of the players who are out injured and get in a couple of players that Vlad wants in his system I think we will be there or there abouts when we finish the season.
As far as the bed wetter vs happy clapper debate is concerned, I think a large contributing factor is that a lot of our fans don’t seem to have adjusted to the fact we’ve been relegated. I saw one post saying that was the worst pozzo match day squad ever, when in reality only Wilmot, Ngakia and Quina haven’t spent their entire careers playing at the top level, and Pedro is clearly going to be a top level player. Yes it’s weaker squad than we’re used to, but that’s the reality of being relegated. Hopefully we’ll end up somewhere in the middle, but in the meantime despite a pretty uninspiring performance we won the game easily.
We won last night right? So why am I feeling so down about it? It's because the realisation we've been fed a bit of a lie I think. The team that took the field yesterday is probably close to the one we'll be playing this season. Not sure too many of those missing 17 will be still with the club by the end of the window. I know Ivic only wants to pick players who will fight for the club, but he did select Kiko and he wants out, by the looks of it. He has to use the quality at his disposal, just to get a few cheap results early on. If last night's selected team play for the majority of the season, we will lose as many as we win, so we need as many positive results as possible, while we still have the talented players to call on. This wont be a popular opinion, but Murray is not as good as Deeney, IMO. Nowhere near his level. Wilmot was a huge disappointment. How many times did he get sucked in, getting too close to his man. When he held on to Assombalonga for his yellow card, was just crazy. He doesn't look to be the level we need him at just yet. He's still developing as a player. I think you have to consider, Boro are one of the weakest sides in the league and will comfortably be bottom half or relegation threatened, but they dominated possession and our midfield was chasing shadows for much of the game. Chalobah, Quina and Cleverley, although not dreadful, were too weak collectively and we need a Doucoure or Capoue type player in there. Watford are not going to get promoted on the cheap. If they don't retain the majority of their quality players, which unfortunately looks likely now, there's very little chance we'll be anywhere near the top come May.
1 Agreed. 2 My daughter and I watched the game on her laptop whilst lying on her bed. We both spontaneously applauded, both when Cathcart scored and when we had finally won. Does that make us 'bed clappers'? 3 I note the return in two or three posts of the term 'early doors'. What do people think it means? 4 I genuinely don't know what 'COG' stands for.
Both the first and second half were bright starts, that faded noticeably after 25 mins or so. Defensively we were solid, but attacking we lacked the width to really push them back. Our midfield was mixed; gave away possession far too often but that is an issue due to other areas of the pitch no being up to scratch as well giving them options.
With the mass exodus on the cards, I'm sure we will make some money, even if we continue selling players for vastly under their value, but how likely are we going to be able to build a side from what we have left? How likely are we going to sign players who are as good or even better than we're selling? How confident are we in the owners being able to pull this off? Today, I feel as if we lost the first match 3-0. In fact I'm feeling more down than I was after we lost 0-3 at home to Brighton last season. We won last night, but it almost means nothing as I can clearly see what's on the horizon for us.
Agree with a lot of this, but Pedro aside, it is a bit disappointing that the worst performances were from players we hoped would come through, Quina, Wilmot, Ngaika. But that’s the point of game time I suppose. Our passing was atrocious, but it is hard to pass to no targets. The lack of options in front of Quina (Pedro v 3) is going to be hard to watch if we stick with that. I would imagine Perica will start soon with Pedro if Suarez can’t. As for Cleverley, he does seem a good fit for captain, but he didn’t have much authority with Navarro who came on like a schoolboy substitute who has been bored on the bench. And between Cleverley and Chalobah surely they could have shown a little more quality on the ball? The Coach clearly likes winning, but passing doesn’t look so high on his priorities.
Meanwhile, I was out and about making percussive sounds with my undergarments. Does that make me a pant clapper?
Your "disappointment " probably depends on if you expected all the big names to feature and the fact 2 of the hyped up younger players weren't involved. Or thought we might " Piss the league " - I certainly wasn't thinking that! We know Hughes , Gray ( for the Championship) and Sarr are injured so when fit you'd like to think they would improve the team. Certainly the bench was very weak and our passing sloppy. Lots to work on and we cannot really judge anything till the transfer window is closed. Tbf Ivic did go 2 up front to try and have more threat but Murray couldn't get into the game and just kept giving away fouls.
If you are a Boro fan are you really going to be happy with your team that huffed and puffed against a patched up side ? Foster was not MOTM which says it all. Also we have players to come back which will strengthen us whereas Boro played their strongest suit and looked fairly ordinary . The key obviously is to sort out who is going\wants to stay asap. Then we can judge where we are as a team\squad.
The thing is once it becomes clear which direction the club are going, in terms of amition, do you think Foster, Hughes and Sarr will stick around? I think that's highly unlikely. For me, I think you could sell it to the squad we have to move on Deeney, Welbeck, Doucoure, Capoue and Deulofeu. But once you start selling the young exciting talent like Suarez and Estupinan.......that's a very different message.
I agree. Boro are not expected to pull up any trees in the Championship, even though the Championship is seen as weak this season. We won last night, but this is probably the team we will turn out each week. I don't rate Wilmot. Too lightweight and easily pulled out of position. Chalobah simply does not have the movement of his early days. Cleverly is a plodder. Murray is 36 and it shows. Yes we are just one game old, but l don't buy the excuse that 17 players were not available. Many of them did not feature as they are up for sale and will not play for us this season. It was a game between two sides that will occupy the lower reaches of the league.
In their last 4 seasons in the Championship Middlesbrough have come 2nd, 5th, 7th and last season 17th. They may have been bad last season but that happens. They may not have seemed good yesterday but I wouldn't be surprised if they finish somewhere between 6th and 10th. This result won't seem so bad at the end of the season. The performance will.
If we have a successful season , and that is a big if, then those points earned whilst we were in transition will be seen as huge and the performance irrelevant.
Fair point but someone has to stay... I would be surprised if Sarr was still here tbh but I get the impressed both the club want to keep him and he wants to stay for now.
I thought of posting my thoughts on the match but last night but stayed away as it was obvious this thread was becoming an argument between those of a more optimistic nature and those who are more inclined towards a pessimistic one. It’s such a shame. We all support the same club. We all devote time to coming on the forum. We all have our different opinions, and our own levels of hope or despair, probably often based on our real life character too. This forum made up of just words on a screen is probably a reflection of real life in that it’s full of optimists and pessimists, hope and despair, good days and bad, people you like and those you’re not so keen on, friendships and fights. It has everything you get in real life. BUT it has something real life doesn’t. We aren’t just a collection of random people without a collective cause. We are all linked by one factor here, no matter our personality or age or gender or location. We all support the same team and want the best for it. And last night I wished we could all win as one. The discussions over transfers and incompetent owners and the rest of the season are for today and tomorrow. Last night was about celebrating the win. We won! That’s say not to say all in the garden is rosy. Omg far from it. I share the angst and the frustration. I worry about just how many key players will depart. Being more of an optimist than pessimist (when the sun is shining, at least) I still have high hopes of seeing us line up in a month or so with Sarr and Capoue and Hughes and Suarez and Estupinan and a commanding centre half and a decent number 6. I have no inside knowledge to know whether these players will be sold, but I sympathise with those who feel something fishy is going on. To make all that money in the Prem and then have 7 weeks to build a squad for this new season and then line up with so many players missing and the likes of Sinclair and Navarro on the bench is very depressing and smacks of something not right. I get that. What I would have said last night, and probably been shot down for being ‘happy clappy’ or whatever the current in-phrase is, is this.. First games are exactly that. They are the first match of a long season. A first chance to see a new league, a new coach, new players. The last time we lost our first match at this level, we got promoted. Lots of times we won it and didn’t. One Head Coach under the Pozzos won it 3-0 and departed soon after. It’s lovely to win the first match, but it’s just that. We have something to build on. We’ve said to the league ‘ok we are here, we mean business, we’ve put down a marker’. Ivic has passed his first test. Done what was asked of him. But now and over the coming weeks, it’s over to the management to give him the best tools to work with. Decisions need to be made quickly about who doesn’t have a future. All these rumours about who might leave is doing nobody any good. Over the course of a long season that squad last night (which wasn’t devoid of quality and promise) will not be deep or strong enough to give us all what we desire, namely promotion. I think the owners and recruiting team dodged a bullet last night, thanks mainly to the quality of the new Head Coach they’ve appointed. Things need sorting out, and fast. And the match itself? We just about did enough. Clean sheet. Better set pieces. First win since away at Norwich I think achieved without Deeney. Good leadership from Foster and Cleverley. Pedro exciting. Kabasele Jekyll and Hyde, much better second half than first. Quina and Wilmot are young, they will have good days and not such good days, that’s natural, give them time. It wasn’t a terrific match but we held our lead, achieved the Ivic dream 1-0 scenario. We are off and running. We won! The buts can start being discussed today, but against a backdrop of 3 points banked. That was always the first aim.
Of course it was. And your post shows your ignorance to the conversation. 99% of posts say exactly what you've just said. Happy with the win. The issues start when the owners are viewed critically as stated previously. A lot of people don't like that. No one is a 'happy clapper' for being happy the team won. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best.
Reckon we'll keep Gray. Agree that the others will be moved on. It's going to be a real balancing act over the next few weeks. Sell Deeney, Pererya, Delia, Caps and Welbeck and we'd still have a strong enough squad to challenge for promotion. We'll need to bring in an experienced, solid midfielder though. If we sell all of the above AND the likes of Sarr, Hughes, Suarez and Estupinan start leaving we'll be in real trouble. I think most on here seem to have a good feeling about the appointment of Ivic. I agree, I think he could do really well. It's down to Gino to make the correct decisions and give him the tools to work with. Really concerned that we're about to become Asset Strip FC.
A COG is part of a machine, so I am guessing being called one in social terms mean you are part of a collective machine who continues to output the same rresponses you were programmed for?
We won , I like it when we win, I was in a pub , I like watching us win when I am in a pub - I think this makes me a happy clapper we should have 2 threads for each game , the happy clapper thread and the bedwetter thread or possibly a third constructive discussion thread where you can say things and people accept that you have different views so dont resort to name calling
We've sold one player so far, and one of the best left-backs in Spain last season, as well as a top Segunda Division striker supposedly want to play at a higher level than the Championship, it's not altogether surprising. Disappointed that they seem to want to go, especially when there were positive signs that they'd stick around, but if you'd told me when we got relegated that they'd both be off, I wouldn't have been surprised one bit
I can't understand your negativity. We won, ok it wasn't a performance anybody wanted but it was a win. Do we have problems? Yes. Will they be addressed? Jesus I hope so. Players will come and go and the sooner the better, but we all know business will still be getting do e on the final day of the window. We've got a new manager playing a new system, who has had little to no time to implement these ideas. Give it some time. Hopefully the club are being forthright in what's happening. As for the players who want out or are stirring the pot Ivic seems to have them training alone, what more can he do? Personally I couldn't believe the lineup when I saw it yesterday but what I did see is a collective unity in the performance. They got stuck in and tried to play when they could. A big plus from last season already. Effort and passion is all you could of asked from that squad and they gave everything. Yes there were mistakes and a few dodgy performances but nobody hid. Let's be honest Sema and Cathcart couldn't of hardly trained with the squad so far. We were sorely under balanced on the left side of defence though and that was blatantly obvious and Warnock used that to his advantage. As for people saying Boro are relegation contenders, absolutely no chance. They will be top half fighting for the playoffs. Warnock knows this league better than any manager in it. So in conclusion. A win, spirited, hardworking performance. It will only get better once the leeches are moved on and we start adding to the squad. I'm still hopeful that Pervis and Suarez stay and that Hughes is back asap. So I'm not overly worried at all. I was certainly a hell of a lot more concerned after Brighton smashed us the first game of last season.
Good win despite the performance. The team looked a bit rusty last night but it was the first game of the season so it's to be expected. I thought Chalobah grew into the game and started to look as though his confidence is coming back. There was one full blooded challenge in the second half that I fully expected him to bottle but he didn't. Maybe a sign that he is trusting his body again? JP greatly impressed me with some fine movement and holding up the ball, it was a shame there was no one near him for the majority of the game. Our priority this window has to be to sort the midfield out as they were bullied from the get go and just couldn't find their rhythm. Had we find some more steel there I believe we would have won that game comfortably. Murray looks way off the tempo at the moment. All in all a good win that's something to build on.
Good post but last time we got promoted was the 3-0 win in the first game and when they sacked Sannino due to player power. Being pedantic.
All I have to say about the match was it was one of worst I've ever seen for the quality on show. An absolute sh*t show from start to finish. Going to be a rocky season and we won't be going up anytime soon.
As usual I like to sleep on it before giving my opinion on a performance. I think we all knew it was going to be a tough game, Neil Warnock is possibly the most Championship manager so it was a good welcome back for us. Personally from the game I was looking for 2 things. Firstly, to obviously get the win. Felt this was important, I think after how we ended last season and the optimism leading up to this, anything other than a win could have potentially be damaging, the belief to win instilled from day one is massively important, especially, as Warnock said, even when not having played well. Secondly, I wanted to see moments where I could clearly recognise what Ivic has been implementing throughout pre season, but most importantly not expecting the perfect performance. So I guess firstly the lineup. I mean, I can't say I was expecting that at all. Although not announced, I feel the general consensus was that Pussetto had gone back to Udinese. Kiko was out of nowhere, almost not been mentioned since the final day and all of a sudden is in the starting 11, very bizarre. Was unfortunate to not see Estupinan and Suarez, I don't want to go into too much detail about that situation in this thread but it is incredibly disappointing that the club publicise that those 2 players in particular, to then see them out the door. I understand that may not want to be here, but like players from last season, if they didn't want to be here, they shouldn't have been involved from the get go. But anyway, we'll see how that plays out. I feel some players put in good performances in parts. 20 minutes here, another 10 minutes there but for a full 90 I'm not sure anyone had a brilliant performance other than perhaps just the one. But it would be unfair to chastise a player for an indifferent performance on the opening day. Really wasn't a great performance collectively but we showed a lot of heart and commitment which is a very much needed trait in the Championship and one we severely lacked last season. Foster- I remember the commentators really stating how they believe Foster would be the best keeper in the league and I really couldn't agree more. He had a good performance, good save with his feet, tipped over the free kick, got down to his right for another, collected closes. Did everything he had to do, solid if unspectacular. Telling the wall to take one in the face is the kind of attitude to want from my keeper. Cathcart- Thought he was solid today. Did what he had to do, but I think we all expected that. Very good header for the goal. Largely went unnoticed but that is not a bad thing for a defender. Someone we can always rely on. Kabasele- I thought he actually started the game incredibly shaky. When he is on it, he is very very good but I feel even in League 2, he would have a mistake in him. However, after that shaky start I thought he really grew into the game and by the end was showing a real experienced and calm head to see the game out. Moment of the game for him was making up a good 2 or 3 yards in a foot race with Assombalonga to usher him away from goal. Wilmot- I was particularly excited to see Wilmot tonight. When I made my comments after the friendly with Spurs I said his passing can be a little wayward, and I'd say the same applied today, I don't want people to think that I am bashing on Wilmot, just think passing is definitely something he'll need to improve on. Lacked a little pace as well, got caught out a few times. However, was very good on the ball and brilliant in the air. I think he'll grow into his position. Will be really important for us. Not sure about the hairstyle mind you. Ngakia- Was excellent against Spurs and was again decent enough tonight. Not quite as impressive but still good. Defensively fairly solid, makes good runs going forward, can't remember to much trouble coming down the right side but a promising start, really excited to see how his game develops throughout the season, seems have a brilliant engine on him. Femenia- Was a massive surprise to see him start, I did not see it coming at all. However, I thought he did okay but it was just the usual from him. Fairly good going forward, but defensively a little suspect. Seems to get sucked in a lot leaving space behind him, but he isn't going to change now, and I doubt he'll be here come the end of the window. Respect him coming in for this game though, especially with rumours surrounding others. Looked leggy but that's unsurprising. Cleverley- Thought Cleverley was really good. Felt like he was absolutely everywhere and was really using all his experience to manage the game. I noticed that he uses his body incredibly well to protect a bouncing ball. Passing was good, I remember a particular tackle to break up an attack which looked vital at the time. Led the team well and at times felt he was keeping it together. Not much to say, does the dirty work and does it well. Will be invaluable to us this season. Chalobah- Was poor in the first half. Always feel he go for the fancy pass when a standard one would just do the trick. Grew into the game in the second half and actually did well, was breaking up play, committing tactical fouls, by the end I felt more hope than despair from his performance. Really hoping he grows as the season goes on. Quina- I'm not going to bash a kid on his what? 17th senior game?. But tonight he was awful. Couldn't seem to make a pass, couldn't seem to keep possession, it just really didn't happen for him. However, we all know how good he could and will be, so I'm not concerned. Wasn't his day but his day will come plenty this season, I'm sure of it. Sema- King Kenny back at the Vic. What a sight. Thought he played well. Brilliant delivery for the goal, make some good runs with the ball, plenty of energy throughout. Think he'll really suit this league, big and strong and a little bit of pace. Incredibly versatile, really looking forward to him being back. Joao Pedro- Was brilliant. Quick, powerful, skilful, everything we want from him. Great passing, great control, would of been brilliant to of been able to top it off with a goal but none the less I was so so impressed with him. I don't really have much to say that others haven't other than its incredibly exciting. As for the subs, Navarro wasn't really on for long and Phillips even shorter but nice to see. As for Murray, like against Spurs, felt a little off the pace, was committing fouls literally all the time but that kind of played into our hands. Overall a win is a win. Wasn't the prettiest but sure signs of what Ivic has been doing. Need to sort out the squad to really see what we're playing with but hopefully the start of something special.
Good point about Sema. His versatility is going to make him a real asset this season. Those little bursts of pace and power are useful all over the pitch.
See my post in the link, Ivic doesn't actually say that Pervis is injured, he just said he has a "small problem" which meant "he was not 100% ready for the game", but that "small problem" could have been anything - including deciding on a move. He actually gave the exact kind of evasive answer one may expect, but people on here are wilfully or foolishly misreading it: http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/pervis-estupinan.57288/page-9#post-2897811
