Surely Kayembe is equally, if not more, to blame as he doesn't look over his shoulder once, also has no idea where Bowen is, moves out of the way which opens up the pass and then doesn't make any effort to track back? At least Cleverley was aware of Fornals and then tried to sprint back when the pass was played. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Cleverley should be starting, nor should Cathcart but people do like to blame them for things where others really are more culpable.
I only watched the first half but it was clear we were set up to have 11 players behind the ball and play out a 0-0 Cleverley and Kucka on the wings when Pedro, Hernandez, Kalu, Sema & even Ngakia are on the bench is too defensive for me. I appreciate we were never going to go there and beat them 2-0 but you cannot defend for 90 minutes
Why not?.. back to back away clean sheets and 2 points would..(and should) have been a good solid start. Watford will beat BHA on Saturday. Is 3000 WFC's top boy?
Mate, let it go. He last played for England EIGHT years ago. Phil Foden was 13, Grealish was 18, Declan Rice was 15, Jadon Sancho would be at Watford for two more years. In other words, IT WAS AGES AGO. You can lose the amount of ability he has in 8 years, very easily. His game was built on high energy, high press, leaving it all out there rather than being superb technically. He overcompensated for his lack of natural match-winning technical ability with his work ethic and attitude which has obviously gone at 32. He was released by Manchester United at like 25. He was released by Everton at age 28 for not being suited to Koeman's high-intensity pressing requirements. We got relegated and NOBODY wanted him for what I assume would've been £2/3 million given how much we sold Capoue for. He didn't lose his ability overnight, he lost it over 8 years.
Michael Essien was one of the most complete midfielders The Prem has seen, at 32 he was playing in the Greek League. To give an example closer to home, Scott Parker a former PFA Player of the Year at 32 was in The Championship with Fulham following a Prem relegation (ring any bells). We let Behrami go at 32/33. One of the best work horses of all time Park Ji Sung played his last game at 32. Because we're little old Watford, someone flashes some England caps and Prem titles from a lifetime ago and we lose our minds. I'm guilty of it too, I thought Danny Rose could be saved. Footballers can lose ability quickly, in fact it's probably what separates the good from the great. Fernando Torres probably won't make a lot of people's Top 10 Prem strikers because he didn't sustain it. That's the difference. Cleverly is not a Premier League starter anymore, please let it go.
When do you think they should've come on? Just after West Ham scored, or some time before? And do you think they should've come on at different times? Granted this is one of the few things Roy was criticized for by the Palace fans - his seeming reluctance to make subs (an example being when they were 2-0 up against Man Utd and he only made one sub, and that being after Utd had got it to 2-2 before winning the game late on).
Should have brought off both Kucka and Cleverley on the 60 minute mark. You could see they were both gone
No, indeed, I'm not a great fan of making three simultaneous changes - it just smacks of a desperate roll of the dice rather than any real tactical response; particularly when it takes place so relatively late. It also suffers from the fact that, although new players are 'fresh' and not fatigued in the way players who've been on for 75+ minutes might well be, it's a known factor that players who come into games can take a few minutes to adjust, going from nothing to being pitched straight into a full-pelt contest that's been going on without them. King literally spoke about this in the post-game interview with Gifton Noel-Williams at the beginning of the season, explaining it was why he ran back to cover the left back position for Sema when Sema was the one who had just come on the pitch as a late sub. Even outside that 'fitness' concern, players are going to have to feel their way into the game to some extent which they just won't have been able to do sitting on the sidelines. That's all going to be potentially pretty impactful when they're given so little time to begin with. Some of the oldest players out there tonight were being asked to do the most work, and looked fuccking tired from fairly early on as a result. I find it hard to understand that we still don't seem to have a predetermined plan to compensate for that, if we are going to insist on starting an incredibly averagely old XI.
Totally agree, but its too slow progress and we're stuffed. Because of the way Roy is setting it up and because the previous regime got us in this position. Being solid and organised is one thing, looking like getting 25 points more is entirely another.
At the risk of repeating myself I think everyone would be a little happier if they didn’t blame Hodgson for being Hodgson. I heard an interview when he was appointed about what we could expect, and it was what we saw last night personified. It was said that if you’re losing 1-0 he’s more likely to just protect the 1-0 margin than actually immediately go gung-ho to change it which is exactly how it played out. His late subs were textbook Roy. He’s clearly a defensive coach and works on having two solid banks of four, and keeping things tight or within 1 goal as much as possible with the hope of nicking a point or win. It’s how he’s been a very successful as manager, so whether you like it or not, you’ve surely got to be a special type of bonkers to expect/hope that all of a sudden changes now, aged 74? It’s literally how his Palace team operated for five years, nick a goal however you can and hold on to it. He’s the oldest manager in the league by far and he’s had relative success within the remits he’s been given for the best part of 40 years, it’s absolutely bonkers to be getting wound up about it now because he’s hardly going to suddenly change is he? I think you’re living in a fools paradise if you think a different manager could’ve come in and got us playing swash buckling attacking football and scoring loads of goals, we hadn’t kept a clean sheet for TWO bloody years? It’s abundantly clear we simply aren’t good enough, how many managers do we need to churn through while not keeping a clean sheet for TWO years before it’s abundantly clear we just don’t have the players? We’re either going to be pissed off about leaking goals through stupid errors, or pissed off about not scoring goals because our attackers are too isolated because we’re trying to stop leaking goals at the other end. It’s really just a metaphorical choice about how you’d rather get pissed off, not that we have a choice in it, it’s just a question of which way the owners have lurched with their latest managerial appointment. We are like a leaky bucket, cover one hole and you uncover another. We scored more under Ranieri but shipped goals at an eye watering rate. We’re more solid under Roy already, but we don’t look like scoring - not his fault for being him, and the fact we don’t have the personnel to keep clean sheets and score loads of goals, it’s what the owners gave us in terms of a squad and it’s exactly what the owners knew they were getting in terms of our manager. We are an awful depressing mess, but nothing could be more futile than moaning about, or being surprised about a 74 year old being the very definition of what he’s been for the best part of 40 years with one of the poorest teams he’s had to do with, in the shortest amount of time he’s probably ever had to try and do it. It’s just utterly pointless to be expecting something different than what we’re getting right now. We got exactly what we signed up for last night. It’s the owners that deserve our ire, they are the one and only reason for results and games like last night and every other game this season. Don’t blame a 74 year old for being exactly what has made him very successful in what he’s been asked to do by people like our owners for the past 40 years.
'heard an interview when he was appointed about what we could expect, and it was what we saw last night personified' Yep, and alongside your ex-manager, he will keep you up. The Geordies have bought themselves out of the drop. Everton and Newcastle utd being relegated is beyond the ultimate **** job. Have faith in Roy and Ray.
I don't think we will have quite enough quality to stay up, but there were positives to take from last night. Bit more solid and more comfortable on the ball and their goal was fortunate. We tired in the last 20 mins and subs had little effect but under Ranieri we would've conceded a hatful i think. A more attacking display against Brighton would be nice to show me Hodgson has more to his locker than just setting up not to concede. And we have Sarr to come back to help us win the occasional games as well.
FMOB. at least give the geezer a chance. Roy has had two very hard away games in short order... and as far as I'm concerned has made a difference already. Honestly beggars belief what some clowns expect. Carry on with that attitude you deserve doomsville
I was calling for it from about 55 minutes. And if we'd done that there would have been no need to do 3 together.
I was going to post in the shoutbox last night after the camera had panned to a reaction shot of the WHam faithful (about 80 scowling blokes): all what @Clive_ofthe_Kremlin calls 'Thumb-men or Thumb-heads...
I’m looking forward to when HB1 starts to position himself ahead of Roy’s sacking. I reckon it will start with about 8 games to go.
It's not hindsight though. Plenty were saying we needed subs before they came on on the SB. I dare say people at the game saw it too. We were leggy by 60 minutes and clearly hadn't got a hold on the game. Their goal came because we were stretched but after that the reaction should have been immediate. Instead we squandered 10 minutes of the match, during which we gave West Ham all the possession and momentum. By the time we did make the (baffling) subs, it was too late to turn the tide. Pedro's jinking run and cross, which King failed to meet aside.
All fair points, but I don't think many are asking for Cleverley to start regularly, are they? Some are just making the point that Cleverley wasn't the main issue tonight. As SLB mentioned, Cleverley and Kucka did the jobs asked of them in a negative system and both did a decent job of restricting a good side. Problem is they're both the wrong side of 30 and can't keep their intensity up for 90 minutes. Both needed a change of system of a sub after 60 mins.
Sorry Roy but I don't totally agree with your after match comments on the Official Club Site. You can ask for more and that is... GOALS!!!
I thought we played quite well, and probably deserved a point. That we didn't get one speaks volumes about this miserable season. We looked well set up, and up until the goal we looked very hard to break down against a team in the Champions League places. That should give us something to build on, although that building work has to come quickly now other teams at the bottom are starting to win. I still feel we are doomed, but the one glimmer of hope to cling to is Sarr. While he can still be frustratingly inconsistent, it's an alarming stat that since his injury we've taken 2 points from 33. That's awful. But a few match-winning performances from him this month could yet put us back in the mix to survive. I think what last night truly highlighted was something most of us feared when the season started, namely we have a midfield full of 'cloggers' with little creativity or end product. It was demonstrated in the first half with Kucka's miss. Bayembe's long-shot and so on. The chances were falling to midfielders who simply cannot find the net. It's a damning stat this this season we've only seen one goal scored by a midfielder (Kucka at Everton) and none at all by any of our defence. When you look back at our last spell in the league, we had the likes of Doucoure, Capoue, Hughes popping up with important goals and the occasional ones too from our central defenders. King is on a barren run, Dennis hasn't scored now for a few matches, Pedro was deemed not worth a start last night, so I think the Watford 0 part of the scoreline was the most predictable thing about the evening. It's not quite white flag time, but it's got to a point where it's Sarr or bust now. When we last played Brighton, we were on a high and they punctured it and brought us all back down to earth. What nice symmetry it would be if they too provide the opposition at the weekend to have the reverse effect and get our slim survival hopes up and running again.
I thought we played quite well, and probably deserved a point. That we didn't get one speaks volumes about this miserable season. We looked well set up, and up until the goal we looked very hard to break down against a team in the Champions League places. That should give us something to build on, although that building work has to come quickly now other teams at the bottom are starting to win. I still feel we are doomed, but the one glimmer of hope to cling to is Sarr. While he can still be frustratingly inconsistent, it's an alarming stat that since his injury we've taken 2 points from 33. That's awful. But a few match-winning performances from him this month could yet put us back in the mix to survive. I think what last night truly highlighted was something most of us feared when the season started, namely we have a midfield full of 'cloggers' with little creativity or end product. It was demonstrated in the first half with Kucka's miss. Bayembe's long-shot and so on. The chances were falling to midfielders who simply cannot find the net. It's a damning stat that this season we've only seen one goal scored by a midfielder (Kucka at Everton) and none at all by any of our defence. When you look back at our last spell in the league, we had the likes of Doucoure, Capoue, Hughes popping up with important goals and the occasional ones too from our central defenders. King is on a barren run, Dennis hasn't scored now for a few matches, Pedro was deemed not worth a start last night, so I think the Watford 0 part of the scoreline was the most predictable thing about the evening. It's not quite white flag time, but it's got to a point where it's Sarr or bust now. When we last played Brighton, we were on a high and they punctured it and brought us all back down to earth. What nice symmetry it would be if they too provide the opposition at the weekend to have the reverse effectsand get our slim survival hopes up and running again.
