Watford Fc - A Deeply Rotten, Toxic Club

Well, we aren’t Cat.1 and don’t offer a pathway to the first team. It’s a vicious circle.

Invest in Cat 1 changes and I don’t think it would always be the case that they leave.

Having Richard Johnson in charge with ZERO experience - yet having that appointment held up as the club somehow paying more attention to the youth set-up tells you why players like Tom Gálvez won’t think twice. Yes it’s City he went to - but what were we offering in return?

Yes the rules and ethics around it all in this country is terrible. But I don’t think that means you should just withdraw from it. It’s just another thing the Pozzo’s have stripped away from the fabric of who we were.

 

How can you go support another team once it's been embedded into your DNA?

 

Unfortunately, even being a category 1 academy does not protect clubs from the so-called 'big clubs', who use EPPP to sign all the best young players from other academies for very little money. Birmingham's youth academy was probably not a good example to choose:

https://bluesfocus.co.uk/2020/12/07...outh-academy-to-pave-a-way-for-b-and-c-teams/

https://theathletic.com/2320149/2021/01/14/birmingham-city-football-soccer/

 

‘as part of a potentially money-spinning scheme’

Indeed.

 

A pathway would appear if good enough.

 

You do know that youth players need, you know, coaching?

Jamie Vardy released at 16 by Sheffield Wednesday. Not good enough?

 

I'm not saying criticism shouldn't be expressed, I have done it myself, but to say the club is toxic and rotten, if they truly believe it they are better off supporting another club tbh. And I also pointed out that another thread about 'dislike get them out' of the owners already exists. Anyone who wishes to carry on with 'this club is toxic and rotten and its down to the owners' views can show it there otherwise we just have multiple threads open slagging off the owners over and over which is a bit nuts.

 

The reason that I suggested that Birmingham"s youth academy was probably not a good example to choose:

"Last month we exclusively revealed how the club (Birmingham City) were considering changing their under-23 and under-18 teams to B and C teams in the future — similar to the model at Brentford. Ditching youth development below the under-18 level was also a move under discussion, and still remains a possibility, even though plans for Category 1 status (the highest level under the Elite Player Performance Plan) are moving forward." (The Athletic)

 

Because they think the club is deeply toxic and rotten.

 

But again, as Heia has said - it's not a matter of 'going off and supporting someone else' - that's not an option available to most of us, is it, including neither you nor I, I would imagine.

You many consider the thread title/sentiment bombastic, which, fairplay; it is, but the point is obviously not because Nath is a Luton fan who gets his rocks off trolling all day every day - it's because he finds himself dismayed with what he sees as the state of the club and wants to express it alongside how he believes it could be improved.

Multiple thread criticism is a matter of personal preference/interpretation, I'll admit, but I've openly never been one for complaints about the internal content of threads and whines of 'going off topic' or 'spam' when that's half the charm of this forum and literally everyone actually engages in it, no matter how hypocritically they ensure they're seen to whine about it on behalf of others (and no, that isn't targeted at you!).

 

https://trainingground.guru/articles/birmingham-city-awarded-category-one-status

I guess they went ahead with it in the end.

 

ROLL UP! ROLL UP! ROLL UP! Come and see the greatest spectacle on Earth.
Marvel as the greatest mime artist the world has known, the great Gino Marceau, not a word will pass his lips, even when a bucket of freezing cold sewage is emptied down his trousers. Cheer on the immortal (well. he will never be sacked) Duxxo The Clown, and all the hi-jinx and scrapes they get into running a football club. Gasp as the animals run amok continuing to blame everyone apart from themselves. Gaze in wonder at the Jumbo elephant twins, Rosie and Toophat. Cry at the sight of a once great Ringmaster Maestro Ranieri have his top hat punched out, his lovely carnation buttonhole torn in half, and his posh suit set on fire. Howl in despair, as the precarious Premier high wire act collapses and comes crashing down to earth. Watch in horror and amazement as the credibility of the club and all those who run it comes to a grinding halt and its wheels fall off. Hours of hilarious fun for everyone apart from those that care about Watford FC.

 

See @EB Hornet ? This is the type of thing I was talking about last night?

Of course people shouldn’t be abused on here. But some of the stuff that comes the other way is just as stupid. But people tend to only speak up when it comes one way…

 

It's funny how so many people say "needs more time" to any managerial appointment, irrespective of results or inside knowledge. You could put literally anyone in, say Piers Morgan or Donald Trump, and people would say that.

In the real world, people get put into jobs they aren't right for (note - this is one of several areas where Pozzo and co. are messing up big time) and they succeed in demotivating people and in some cases making them go out and get another job. Should companies just accept that or get rid / performance manage them?

 

Fair point about 2 threads. I must say I am personally at the point where I would like to go and support another club as I do think the club is rotten. But I can’t as Watford is in my blood and you can’t just turn that off. I suppose a non league club might work, but really I am just going to be sad until Pozzo and Duxbury are gone.

 

In their heart of hearts can anyone really seriously consider going off and supporting another club rather than this one. You stick with it through thick and thin, good times and bad, it's in your blood. We're the ones who will still be here when the powers that be, have finished breaking their toy and have moved on to pastures new. We had 10 glorious years under GT and then 10 years of fallow i.e. sh1te, utter turd, under Petchey. Perhaps we're now coming to the end of another 10 year cycle. Hope that the next one isn't as bad as the Petchey one though.

 

It's hard but it is possible. People have changed political parties after supporting/voting for the same one for decades. Because they genuinely believe the party they followed all this time is now rotten. I think the words 'genuinely believe' is important as well. You probably wish the owners would be different and are sad at the moment. That I would say is different to saying the club is genuinely very toxic and rotten. Some comments can be knee-jerk reactions on the forum, I understand that, those who display them are unlikely to change the club they support. As I said those who really genuinely think the club is really toxic and rotten it isn't worth them carrying on getting frustrated to that extent was my point.

 

I understand that view and expect @wfcmoog feels the same. I'm sure a new owner would be better at communicating and switch to a more "traditional" way to run a club. I expect we will be less likely to frequent the prem but there will be a warmer feel about the place and players and managers will seem less like they are just briefly transitioning through.

 

There have been some good points raised in support (as well as criticism) of the Pozzos, but I can't agree that spending five years in the top flight is that big a achievement when you compare it to what clubs of similar (and in most cases smaller) size have achieved. Or is it fair to say that what they achieved was even more impressive?

We spent five years in the top flight, without a top-half finish - yes we had some good cup runs, but not as good as what some of the other clubs achieved. Let's compare what we did to the other small clubs that had an extended spell in the top flight:

Watford - five years, highest position 11th, FA Cup semis with a disappointing performance against a very beatable Palace team, FA Cup final where we got humiliated.
Bournemouth - five years, highest position 9th and a higher average league position than us
Swansea - seven years, highest position 8th, League Cup winners (winning at Liverpool and 3rd place Chelsea on the way)
Wigan - eight years, highest position 10th, League Cup finalists and FA Cup winners

And Brighton are almost certain to be playing their sixth consecutive season in the Prem next season and may achieve a top 10 finish on the way, plus got to the FA Cup semis and were far more competitive against Man City than we were in the same competition that season. Crystal Palace, a club not much bigger than us, look on course to double our five-year stay, their highest position is 10th and they got to an FA Cup final.

 

That’s just the entitlement talking.

 

The club isn’t rotten. It does some very good things.

But the ownership structure is rotten and that feeds down throughout the club so it’s very easy to see why people say what they do. At the end of it all, fans will all view the club through different prisms - some will love the community aspect and see it as far more than a footballing entity. Others will see the opposite and see on-field matters as the only thing that matters and couldn’t give a toss about Sensory Room’s or who is in the Harry The Hornet costume. And who are you or I to say that either outlook is wrong or that anyone who disagrees with the other side of the coin should simply go and support someone else? It’s a ridiculous train of thought.

For me - as I’ve said before…first and foremost we are a football club. Not a community project with a football team.

People are angry because they care. Not because they just want to be angry. We can all tell one another why they are wrong and have heated debate etc - I don’t see the issue with that. But telling people how they should feel is different and I don’t get the point of that.

 

That's ok then. You therefore aren't one of the people I was talking about.

 

I would say agree with your point about that being even more impressive. But look at Wigan now, top of League One. Bournemouth 2nd in the Championship and Swansea 17th in the Championship. They may have had good times, and two of those clubs look like they are on their way back, but they've all failed considerably since their achievements.

Brighton and Palace are good examples, but they are the exception, not the rule. I would add Burnley to that list too. All clubs similar to ourselves who have been trading and succeeding at the top for a period of time. We await to see what Brentford do, but they could well join that list in a couple of years.

Here's an interesting Wiki page listing the wealth of all clubs. Our owners have the same wealth as Forest Green and Fleetwood!! That should put it all into perspective as to how well we are doing.
List of owners of English football clubs - Wikipedia

 

But you shouldn’t really be talking about anyone and how they feel and what they should do. That’s my point.

Debate with them the reasons why it’s not rotten and toxic. Don’t just tell them to go somewhere else because you don’t agree with them.

 

And Bournemouth by the looks of it. Wait, I thought Bournemouth’s owners were super multi-billionaires?

Also, you can’t just pile up exceptions to the rule. Then they become the rule. I hope we become exceptions to the rule.

 

I don't see why not. I am giving an opinion on how I feel about those people who feel the club is 'genuinely' very toxic and rotten. It is my opinion.

 

He must be the only peasant oligarch in Russia. Unlucky for Bournemouth that.

 

Then it’s worth noting, Adam Leventhal has been stark in getting comments/insight from those far closer to things than you or I - and he used the word ‘toxic’.

 

So your solution to people who think the club is toxic is just to support someone else, you wouldn’t advocate these people try and arrange some sort of fan protest like Everton on Saturday at least, as a first option? Your solution is simply take it or leave it, nothing at all in between?

 

Yes, there is not 3 teams worse than Norwich.

 

Ok and per A19Tgg we are much worse that Norwich, so we must also be gone? Best to use this window to try to sell the assets we have for prime Jan prices and start assembling the team to support Fletch firing us back up next season.

 

I was aware that Birmingham's youth academy was awarded category 1 status in May 2021. The club had previously been undertaking an Elite Elite Player Performance Plan audit and it is unclear whether the club will now go through with plans to restructure.

You wrote that "Although if Birmingham can afford it, I’m sure we can." I suggested that Birmingham's youth academy was probably a not good example because there are clearly concerns about the costs and benefits of the academy whatever the final decision may be. I do not know whether you are a subscriber and were able to read the whole article in the Athletic (published on 16th January 2021), which did anticipate that the club's youth academy would acquire category 1 status.

"At a time where money is tight and debts are rising – the club owe £110 million to their controlling parent company, Hong Kong-based British Sports Holdings — adding cost to an academy that already takes up around £3 million of the budget is an obvious issue.

Birmingham City are also yet to explain how they plan to make a Category 1 academy work with B and C teams. The two are not usually compatible."

 

But I’m not really sure what your point is. You said that Birmingham weren’t a great example. But they went ahead with moving to Cat 1 anyway. If your point is the finances involved not making it an attractive option to our owners, then I’d agree with you. I’ve always said that it’s a financial and long term planning decision and not a football one.

 

And as has been suggested numerous times, the real culpability lies in their refusal to gradually upgrade the relevant areas of the squad over the last 4 seasons; no-one expected 10 upgrades at one go.

 

He mentioned a toxic dressing room atmosphere a couple of days back, which isn't what I was talking about.