Kucka looks totally knackered after an hour, and that's not just one time, it's most of the time. As much as Gosling was a punt last season, he may well have a decent run in the side if Kucka continues to blow more cold than hot.
It's pleasing to see the fallacy is also now working its way to our midfielders. I think Gosling has looked at least equally as leggy in his appearances this season as Kucka has!
Southampton had men sent off in both those games though, and I think Ranieri might have soon subbed Kucka or moved him back in position if it was clear it wasn't working to avoid a defeat that heavy. On a related note, people often say "it could be/have been double figures" when saying what could happen/have happened in one of many mismatches between our team and one of the top sides, but has that ever actually happened in any domestic game in this country in recent years? There was a 10-1 when Man City played Huddersfield at Maine Road decades ago and we lost 10-0 to Wolves in an FA Cup replay while still a non-league side, I can't think of any other examples though.
So, if you were Ranieri who would you stick with after Liverpool? I don't think Foster has done too much wrong to be fair. He was probably MotM on Saturday and kept the score down. He's not perfect, but he's better than Bachmann (even though I know that's not a universally held opinion). He has little choice in picking Cathcart and WTE in the centre. Hopefully he won't play 3 at the back, as we just don't have the players for it. Even though Rose was extremely poor against Liverpool, he's one of the only bright sparks this season. You have to keep faith with him. Unless you play Sarr on the wing, you have to play Ngakia over Kiko. Midfield is a bit yuk at the moment. Kucka cannot play now. He's been off it for too long. Sissoko picks himself, but the other position is up for grabs. No idea who he selects, although Cleverley is the most industrious. Cucho did at least try but he's probably a better option from the bench. If King is fit, he plays, however, I think it's time to bring Pedro in. Either on the left or centrally. Put Sarr on the right wing. I was very disappointed in the application shown by the players on Saturday and the performance was so bad. I know it was Liverpool, but you can still play well against them. It is allowed. If you play badly against them then this is why you lose 5-0. If you play with a bit of passion, endeavour, spirit etc, then you only lose 2-0 and have your pride intact. For me, the players that must dropped are Masina, Kucka, Cathcart, WTE & Kiko. For now we have to play the two CB's, but we have to drop them as soon as we can. Don't really need Sema or Gosling as part of the squad either, if we're being honest. So if we manage to get to January, with still a possibility of staying up, we need upgrades on these players. Nkoulou might be decent, but we may quickly see why he's a free agent. Even if he is good enough we still need another quality CB to come in. Midfield we need a young dynamic player who will run and chase everything. We need that energy. A young Doucoure type player is required. Also, another central striker is required. Someone who can replace King without too much of a drop off. Fletcher is too far behind and is only a Championship standard player.
Well we lost 8-0 to City without any red cards, and we were already 5-0 down after 18 minutes before the incapable Foulquier was hooked on minute 33. Also, I wouldn't put it past Kucka to get himself sent-off at CB after 10 minutes with a last-ditch lunge to deny a goalscoring opportunity.
And I just found out they signed their centre back Paul Hilton! Amazed he got into a team containing Martin, Devonshire, Cottee, Brooking, Paul Allen, Pike, Stewart, Parkes and Bonds who nearly won the title three seasons later, but that kind of thing could only happen in the 80s and earlier.
Maybe, but we gave it our all against Man City in 2017 and lost 6-0. It could be that yesterday was when they were starting to fully click and we were unfortunate it happened to be against us, and we could see a fair few more performances and results like that against teams better than us this season - they're arguably looking a better side than in 2019/20, when they were an incredibly consistent super-efficient winning machine but rarely hammered anyone (unlike Man City and the best Fergie Man Utd teams).
I’ve calmed down a bit but this result still really stings. It’s the embarrassment more than anything. You grow up a Watford fan and you don’t really expect the world or anything really and I’ve seen some terrible performances since my first game in 96 but that was just shocking on so many levels. They literally gave up. I don’t ever remember a team giving up like that. Just never seen it. I don’t think I can even think of a professional equivalent of that? Maybe it would be working for MI6, and just simply posting all the secrets direct to the Russians and Chinese email inboxes, whilst openly masturbating around the office but being so pathetic you can’t even manage that and you end up just, naked, alone and withering half dressed in the corner and on cctv, if that cctv happened to also be watched by millions of viewers. Nope I can’t because if most of us came out and did that in our jobs we’d never work in the industry ever again and the consequences of that could be dramatic. Thoughts: 1) I would quite literally rather play the youth team than ever have a Watford senior team turn up like that again. 2) The Pozzo’s and Duxbury have seriously left this defense to rot. It’s too much to turn round in January or even in the summer. I’d play Ngakia and retire Cathcart. Rose can be switched with the teenager. Play Sierralta when he’s fit and pray this new CB isn’t just more elderly deadwood. *No prizes for the spoiler here though, he’s 31 and free* 3) That has to be one of the oldest starting central midfields ever. Kucka and Sissoko to be replaced with Cleverly? I started looking round other central midfield options to find similar combinations from this weekend. Thought maybe West Ham might have someone there as the oldest squad in the league but even they aren’t stupid enough to play them in the “engine room.” Came across Doucoure as one of the nearest to them in age at 28. We sold him. Also thought maybe Palace as second oldest squad, who gave our best midfielder from last season a better contract and he still only makes their bench. Our midfield has been completely gutted and replaced with journeymen from being our deepest position in just two seasons. Anyone have any stats on oldest central midfield partnerships in the prem? 4) Except Sarr, this team stinks. We have to mix it up again and shake it around to try and find something to work with but the rest are simply so unforgivingly ****. Basically unilaterally ****. As a fan group we have literally been left debating the impacts of psychological bias towards players sat on the bench because they are all so mediocre and useless. I have Duxbury’s podcast interview running through my head and whilst I never trusted him, it’s now clearly Trump levels of flatulence that escaped his mouth that day. We’ve literally done the opposite of what he said we would do. I just hope for his self respect that at the end of this season he peels back the mask, from under his chin and underneath unveils that actually it has been Jeremy Beadle as a sleeper agent trying to take revenge on Elton John after he blanked him one time at some award ceremony all along and Duxbury was an ongoing joke, a myth, just to troll Watford fans. Only then would I agree to give him the remotest amount of respect for doing a good job. Fair play Jeremy, fair play. Don’t come out and say that you will only hire people who want to be at Watford, then hire people who publicly put on the worst effort ever in a Watford shirt. They clearly all wanted to be anywhere else from minute 1. Rant over. Feel like i’ve inherited all the bad energy that was in Newcastle.
I agree, we need to shake it up and almost have to start again. We've got so many problems it's unreal. Sure, Ranieri might get them playing to a higher degree of intensity, which will improve the performance levels and he may even find a way of unifying the team so it plays in an effective, cohesive way, however, he'll not be able to polish a turd, and we have a lot of those at the club. Unfortunately, sorting out the defence, midfield and forward line will cost money. What do we need as a bare minimum? I'd say a CB, CM and CF all of proven EPL quality. As I mentioned, that comes at a cost. How can we afford it? Well I can only think of three ways. First we sell Sarr in January and use the money to sign those three players, plus maybe another hopeful young RW player. We could sell part of the club to a wealthy outside investor, who could initially boost the club's finances, or finally we could gamble and overspend money we don't really have in some sort of creative financial scheme. Realistically I think the board will go for option 1. They will sell Sarr in January and will buy 3/4 players with the money. It's only way we'll have even a remote chance of staying up this season. We're not staying up with the squad we have right now, even if Ranieri performs miracles again.
For the first time ever I agree that selling Sarr in January and re-investing all the money in the squad would be the best way forward.
Interesting thought but I, for one, don't think I could stomach the endless Liverpool love-in to follow if Sarr was handed over to Sadio as a late Christmas present this January. Here is the man himself making an early selection on his Amazon catalogue. "Please, please, pretty please, Jurgen."
He wasn't even that bad that day and certainly wasn't responsible for any of the five goals whilst he was on the pitch. Quique scapegoated him with that substitution but there were multiple others who were worse in that opening half hour.
Bachmann Ngakia Nkoulou Sierralta Rose Sissoko Louza Sarr Tufan JP King I've done Raneiri's job for him.
The problem with the idea of selling Sarr in January is that, despite his disappointing performance-ratio at this level in his career to date, he's still just about the only player who can do anything for us offensively - 3-4 out of 5 games he's incredibly frustrating and does nothing; looking like he's never been coached in an attacking sense, and doesn't know how strong and fast he is, but in one of those games his natural talent means he'll pop up with a goal out of nowhere that his performance scarcely deserves, and that 5th game he'll have at least periods in which he appears unplayable, and possibly manages to win us the game. If we forfeit that, as much as there is a logic to doing so (especially as a hedge, dependent upon the points tally come January, against losing him for absolute peanuts on a prospective relegation day in May), where the **** is a single goal or meaningful attack going to come from? As a club, we've foolishly relied solely on moments of individual genius to create goals for us, as policy, for the vast majority of the last six seasons - I know I've written posts lamenting this trend at least as far back as the 18-19 season, and so have others. We haven't had any real plan or practiced cohesion to construct attacks around in the final third since 'give it to Deeney/Iggy to give to Iggy/Deeney'. However much of a miracle worker Claudio might turn out to be, I don't see him miraculously coaching that into a complete 180° in the next 3 months. And I don't see Gino spending the required money, or recruiting intelligently enough, to replace that livewire threat adequately enough (which obviously wouldn't require whatever Sarr's cost is, because he doesn't contribute at anywhere near that value, but would be more than sixpence ha'penny; the natural consequence of which being that Gino's out).
18 months ago we pulled that result out of nowhere. Brilliant though it was, the very next match we were back to abysmal, away to Palace. A lot changes in 18 months and we also have a lower quality squad now compared to then. Beating a top six team once in a blue moon doesn't mean we can compete at Premiership level. To stay up we have to rely on three other teams being worse than we are, no matter how much effort we put in at every level (not that anyone can accurately judge that from the outside, but apparently you know differently) and that, for me, does not make for a pursuit I want to throwing money at year after year.
I don't think I am tbf! From what I've seen, he's clearly not a holding midfielder, but in a more advanced position...he's worth a try surely, it's not as if everyone else is forcing him out of the team As for Nkoulou, in terms of pedigree, he's got to be ahead of everyone we have, OK he's not played for ages, but again, it's not as if our defence is so strong that he shouldn't get a chance when fit
Most PL teams don’t lose 5-0 to Liverpool. Most Championship or Div One teams do better in the cup, even against a strong side. We could have and should have been better and a dreadful team selection/set up was part of it.
So what you're saying is we should have played even more of our Div One standard players yesterday as they would somehow have played better? Got it! Btw, Liverpool beat Champion's League Porto 5-1 away a few weeks (and only two games) ago - should they have also played more League One players?!
Didn't watch that game, but did Porto at least look like they were trying? We just had absolutely nothing, and it absolutely could have been more had Liverpool actually tried in the second half, I don't care how good the oppo were, that was embarrassing
Selling Sarr is going to happen sooner rather than later, I think that is very clear to all fans. So with that in mind, if we sell to Megabucks United for £70m, then that would give us funds to invest. With that type of spend we could bring in 3 or 4 quality players who could make a difference. Let’s not pretend we’re going to stay up this season without some real quality, especially in the defensive positions. Even if your forward line is poor, you can still do well in the Prem if you are solid. Look at Brighton and Burnley as a point proved. Unless there is a very wealthy investor waiting in the wings, I think we have to do the deal in January and hope we get a lot of money for him.
Here's that fallacy again - "everyone on the pitch is terrible, so surely those on the bench can't be any worse" (even though they certainly can be, and probably are, otherwise they wouldn't always be on the bench). Sure, he should get a chance when fit, and his pedigree is alright, but he could also turn out to be another Kucka. At least unlike Louza we've not seen him play yet to find out how crap he actually is, so I can just about give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being, but our recent track record with signings has not been promising.
Would it have been any better if they were also trying? It would indicate that their players are even worse than ours. Also, I don't think that Cathcart, Kucka, Rose and Cucho for instance weren't trying for the most part - they were just terrible and completely off the pace. I only saw the BT Sport highlights of the Porto - Pool game, so hard to tell their effort levels, but their defending was also laughably bad.
We have assets and we have liabilities. The Sarr asset will be turned into a cash asset which will then be used to reduce our biggest liability (no, not Cathcart, external debt). It has always just been a question of when to maximise the cash we get for Sarr. Even if say £15m of that cash was reinvested in the squad, would you trust the club to reinvest wisely ?
They were terrible, but players also quickly decided they couldn’t compete. They weren’t prepared to make the runs, to get tight to players and do the hard graft. They just didn’t want to know. You can carry 1 of 2 players with that attitude but not 7 or 8. It’s not been the first game where they’ve not applied themselves either. Leeds, Wolves, Brighton and Newcastle are further examples where players are just not doing enough. This is a big issue and Ranieri’s first job is to find a solution to the attitude problem before it festers into something rotten and beyond repair. You know you have problems when the club cheerleader Adam Leventhal is having a rant. The problem is as serious as that.
We have to deal with this cold, hard truth at some point. I'd rather sell Sarr in January, bring in some new players and never have some of those players who played at the weekend ever in a Watford shirt again. You have to have principles and that performance was just a step too far. Yes this is worrying. We sell Sarr in January, get a Udinese player on loan and a couple more free players who want a paycheck before retirement. For it to make sense a large chunk has to be re-invested in the team.
…and then if we are still relegated the owners are accused of being reckless with our finances and putting our future at risk ? Or do you think we can spend £50m and guarantee that we won’t ever be relegated and can pay debt back at another time (remembering that we ran at a loss in the prem before, due to the significantly higher costs) ? the reality is, we won’t be spending big, sorry “investing”, our way out of this issue. We don’t have the finances that other prem clubs do as evidenced in the thread last week.
