Ukraine - Catalyst For Ww3

It’s to do with you because you believe you have the answer and the moral high ground. But you haven’t said on what terms that peace would be or addressed the issue of whether Russia would keep it. They didn’t after ‘peace’ with Georgia.

So here’s another chance, should Ukraine have been compelled by the West to cede territory and its right to join NATO and the EU? To essentially become a vassal state of Russia? Would that satisfy your love of sovereignty?

I posed the question early on in this thread, should we be doing this for Ukraine? A Country with some dodgy politics of its own. If Ukraine had been for surrender that would have been its choice. But it clearly wasn’t and not just the politicians. So would you have not supported them? Let them be crushed? So you could own the Libs?

 

I have answered that question three or four times on here already.

Let them negotiate peace. So hundreds of thousand wouldn’t die, so billions in infrastructure wasn’t destroyed, so your energy bills did not rocket, so people around the world do not suffer and die through energy poverty or starvation because of the impact on grain production.

The people I want all of us to own are the billionaires who are the ONLY people making anything out of this war.

But nah, says Moose. Culture war.

I wonder which of us is being distracted? Or is attempting to distract.

 

Me spineless? It’s you that is happy for the proxy war to be fought at the cost of a country’s young male population (as well as the civilian losses). I wonder how you might feel about a negotiated peace if you were a Ukrainian family living amidst the conflict?

It is easy to be the big brave ‘to the death’ hawk living in comfort in a UK home.

As one blob of jelly said to another.

 

I don’t disagree with any of that, except that it’s not an answer to the question about the possible terms. Unless you can even remotely sketch those out, you’ve not seriously considered the problem.

My guess is that you want Ukraine to give up territory and sovereignty for peace with a neighbour who cannot be trusted not to come back for more.

 

Skyla, until you stop people from doing it, they will continue to do it. And if you don’t stop them from doing it, I am going to respond in kind to defend myself. UEA came out with his bile unprovoked. I called him nothing. You don’t need to stop the thread or ban anyone. Just point directly to the source and say stop.

Do the same to me if I start flinging insults around unprovoked. Forthright disagreement is not provocation, except to a child.

Sorry Skyla, but your well meant comments achieve nothing. Tell UEA he shouldn’t have started it, and he will stop doing it. But warn everyone like it was provoked, and it will have no effect.

If someone is allowed to talk to me like that, then I am going to reply in kind. If UEA had not insulted me, he wouldn’t have got it back. Out of interest, did anyone complain about UEA, or was it just me?

When you are dealing with children, you have to treat them like children.

 

Then please read my previous posts when I described what you ask.

Fight the war and lose everything and seriously damage the World economy, if you like. Or concede the inevitable, and some territory.

A very unpleasant choice, that is existential for hundreds of thousands of people including non-Ukrainians. My personal view is it has only one answer.

You may say you agree with my concerns, but to reject any Russian terms seems to condemn Ukraine, and the wider World, to perpetual misery.

 

It’s Ukraine’s choice. They’d rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

But again, you need to understand that Russia won’t stop, whatever it agrees to. Peace will mean perpetual Russian domination and interference, a leader chosen by Russia, imprisonment of Russian critics, polonium beverages.

 

Ukraine may have made a very different decision if they had not been supported with billions of dollars from the West, or wound up by the US bent on a proxy war to remove Putin. It also seems likely the US took advantage of the sutuation to do exactly what they said they would do, and take out Nordstream 2, at serious cost to European powers, and all our pockets.

And, as has been said many a time, this, arguably, would not have happened under Trump.

I am not judging all these things to be better or worse than each other, but I suspect that what we end up with, could possibly have been avoided, but almost certainly will not be too far removed from what negotiations could have achieved, but with far less of the detremental effects. Just my opinion.

 

Extraordinary how you turn Russian meddling in Ukraine, by arming separatists, to the extent they shoot down a passenger plane, fanning a civil war and then carrying out an invasion into a proxy war to remove Putin.

 

Oh. So its not a US funded proxy war to remove Putin, as stated by Joe Biden.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

That’s not the genesis of this conflict.

It may well be the US’s hope and even its indirect aim now, but that doesn’t mean that’s what caused it or that a different US view would have prevented it.

If you think the problem here is imperialism, then you are correct. That’s Russian imperialism.

 

Huh? You reported that? Jeez, I never had you down as the fragile type. That's genuinely made me laugh this morning

By calling it a proxy war you're already demonstrating your bias and adherence to the Kremlin's talking points, which is pretty ironic given what you were whining to the mods about.

We don't need to wonder what the hypothetical Ukrainian family feels. There's recent polling on it: https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx#:~:text=Residents in the North of,also supports fighting to victory.

Understandably those nearest the front lines are less keen on continuing the conflict. That makes perfect sense and I suspect a lot of people in those regions simply don't see much hope of reversing Russia's gains. If the consensus of all Ukrainians changes towards a negotiated settlement then I think we should listen to that. But until it happens we should support them unequivocally.

 

You do understand that my village idiot post was reported, and deleted, to the mods by another member, which triggered Skyla's plea for moderation, don't you? Funnily enough, I didn't imagine for a moment that it was you.

I do not report people for anything they say to me or anyone else on this forum. I am happy to respond in the spirit I am addressed. After finding my post had been reported and deleted, I did highlight your post to the mods, specifically saying I did not want it deleted (because I will stand up for myself) to show that the person reporting me was acting selectively, in line with their promises to get me banned.

So no, I didn't report you. I have never done so. You know it is not my style.

Any idea who may be trying to get me banned? And winding the forum up, using the mods to intimidate me, by selective complaints. Were you insulted being called a village idiot? I didn't imagine so, given your preceding post.

I've been wracking my mind to try and figure out who it can be, but I just can't figure it out.

 

You have eliminated the possibility that it could be a case of the US funding a proxy war to remove Putin. I am not convinced by your argument, but fair dos to you. Russian imperialism may play a part in it, but I suspect it is more to do with Putin's lunatic paranoia. When the dust finally settles, I don't imagine there will be many that agree with your position, and I suspect there will be attempted court cases to seek compensation for the Nordstream action.

You are right though, it may well be the US's hope, and an "indirect" aim. They are very lucky that encouraging Ukraine has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of non-US men, the weakening of EU infrastructure and currency, the destruction of Nordstream 2, and the enrichment of many US billionaires, paid either for their deadly weapons, or promised reconstruction contracts.

Funny how it works out. The US getting what it hoped for and indirectly profiting favourably from a war being fought by another country, with US money, cheer leading and weapons.

Not a proxy war at all. Just an incredible, unexpected coincidence. And anyone who says otherwise must lurve that Putin boy.

Not convincing at all.

 

Particularly nauseating when you present yourself as the embodiment of the forum’s rules and spirit.

You wrote that you complained, hardly unreasonable for UEA to assume you complained.

But complaining can be a positive as it can lead to change.

 

Would it be way too hard for you to blame an invasion and slaughter on the Country actually doing it?

Sure, the US is not entirely trustworthy and not without self-interest, but you’ve demonstrated no mechanism the US had for making the war happen.

As usual, you just like the sniff of the politics, so you go in that direction and cherry pick reasons to fit.

 

Absurd. Your words have no relationship to what I said. I didn't complain about UEA. I criticised his decision to use abusive language, and to show that a third party poster had selectively chosen to complain about 'village idiot' but not 'spineles sycophantic Putin lover' and comparison to Maga Loons. yes, but I never complained.

So that is him insulting me, unprovoked, and you selectively complaining about me, in order to either get me banned or get my post deleted. Which is what happened. Effectively, not for the first time, you used the mods, through selective criticism, to unwittingly intimidate me, and prevent me from responding in kind to a poster whom, it appears, considered his insult in keeping with the nature of this thread, and had no problem with my response. Though you saw an opportunity and took it.

I hope the mods see through your actions.

 

What has @Moose done now?

 

Ban?

 

It’s long overdue.

 

In my defence, it looks like you're arguing with yourself to me, so I can't see who else to blame.

 

Is it?

Can you site your reasons for a ban?

Is disagreement a problem for you?

Is it my grammar?

 

Hooter is undoubtedly your finest work.

 

It’s @wfcmoog ‘s attention to detail and the ability to stay in character that impresses.

At times I can almost believe there is a real person ready to write those wacky things.

 

Would reall appreciate an explanation Keighley. You chose to say the thing, I think the least you could do is explain why. PM me if you like.

Have you seen the abuse I am getting from cyan?

Do you think I ever spoke to another poster like that?

I can take it from the usual crowd without explanation. But you are an intelligent and generally thoughtful person. That is why I would like to understand why you think I should have been banned. What it is that I said?

I mean, was it me criticising the use of the most disgusting racial insult on here? That is what what kicked Moose off, after he defended the poster.

I would really appreciate an explanation.

 

I read it as @Keighley humorously stating a ban on Moog was long overdue…maybe I missed the point.

 

You did. I never say anything humorous. Just ask Mrs K.

 

So you seriously wanted Moog banned?

 

No, @Moose.

 

I see you’re pedantically demanding accurate spelling again.

 

Let’s be clear, it was @Moose that proposed a ban for @Moose

 

Indeed, that was my understanding.

 

You didn’t have to agree, you b’stard. Shakes fist…