There Is Power In A Union

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Moose, Jul 22, 2022.

  1. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    It's not a terrible idea in principle but it requires some serious reform in parts of the private sector first. Why should any private sector wages that are kept artificially low because corporations know the Government will top up the incomes of the lowest paid with in-work benefits be taken into account when determining what the average wage rise for a public sector worker should be?

    Unfortunately, we seem to be willing everyone on in the race to the bottom.

    Percentages are also a really blunt tool when it comes to discussing what wage rises should be. 5% of £20,000 is £1,000. 5% of £75,000 is £3,750. 5% of £250,000 is £12,500.

    And the debate is twisted by people who simply can't tell the truth – see Gillian Keegan today getting the average teacher's salary wrong. Far be it for me to say she did it deliberately but she did it more than once today and as Education Secretary she should be in better command of basic facts. Therefore the conclusion has to be that she deliberately gave misleading information to skew the argument. Fine, if you can be bothered then go away and look up the facts. Not so fine if people just nod along and go: "Yeah, greedy teachers."
     
  2. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
     
  3. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    For me, there is a really interesting debate around pay and the willingness for reform in schools.

    My friend’s Mum a few days ago was boasting that her just-teenage daughter, who goes to a very good school, had just learned how to use Powerpoint.

    And I could only reflect upon how antiquated our education system seems to be. To be competitive in the current, let alone the future world, kids at that age should have already been taught coding and learnt about AI. Our syllabus barely changes and whilst part of that is to do with funding and incentives, part of that story is the resistance to change and further training by teachers and unions.

    There needs to be a conversation about how schools are run. Part of that I think should be paying teachers more. Part of that should be reducing some of the burdens on teachers outside of their specialities, by bringing in specialist support staff.

    But there should also be regular reviews of the syllabus, and if there is grade inflation, this should be seen as a sign that the syllabus isn't keeping pace with the growing complexity of the world. But this will only work if teachers and unions permit more of a develop or leave culture, which will be a shock for teachers I know personally, who get annoyed at any syllabus changes as they can't use old teaching plans.
     
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  4. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Do kids really need to be taught coding? How many of them will use that skill later in life?

    This is a genuine question, I have no idea. But I can't see that it would have been the slightest use to me in my career.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
  5. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Classic mike. You’ve had thirteen years of the Tories trying to drag education back to Latin, grammars and secondary moderns and for you it’s, as ever, the unions and an anecdote or two.

    Teachers often want to innovate, good teachers do. There is also a place for the teachers who simply follow, because school teaching is also about nurturing. The school team needs variety.
     
  6. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    My youngest son teaches English at a state-run secondary school (year 7 upwards). The books on the syllabus haven't changed much in 40 years. Just saying, like
     
  7. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    A basic (pun intended) knowledge will help. Even at my ripe old age we were programming in basic on BBC micros, back at junior school. Kids should have a handle on the fundementals, but don't need to be able to produce an ap unless they want to specialise in IT/computer studies.

    Neither has the language really. Unless you want them to study 50 shades of Gray or Harry Potter. In my day it was the likes of Animal Farm, Romeo & Juliett, To Kill a Mockingbird. I would suggest that these are all still hard to improve upon. There is always an element of chosing some of your own also.

    Back in my day we didn't need teaching assistants. Mind you apart from the odd music or sports club at lunchtiume or after school the teachers just taught. I think they are probably expected to do a lot more now despite schools adding administration departmentss etc. Usual bloat in the wrong areas I would think.
     
  8. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I think coding is a useful skill to learn simply because it teaches logic, design and problem solving skills. Yes, most people won't actually ever code in their careers but many jobs, from a motor mechanic to a structural engineer, need those very same skills imho.

    I would also say that most people don't actually use the vast majority of what they were taught at school in their careers. I've certainly not found a use for religious studies, English literature, Geography, History etc etc in my actual working life.
     
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  9. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I can’t imagine a stampede of people with even medium IT competence leaving the private sector to become teachers considering the salary differential.
     
  10. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I think you may find the levels of interpretative analysis your job requires may have been improved by study of such subjects as Eng Lit & History, even if you don’t think they’ve had any impact.
    Similarly the early study of a foreign language helps people develop the ability to think differently and comprehend apparently alien attitudes.

    I’m sure it would be helpful if the practical application of Maths & Sciences in later life was also proposed as a more prominent benefit to students aged 11…

    The current system seems to treat so many subjects as if hermetically sealed.
     
  11. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    There definitely used to be a place for flexibility beyond the set texts. When I did O-Level Eng Lit we had to produce a portfolio of 8 essays: 4 on novels, 2 on poetry, 1 on a play and 1 ‘extended’ essay on any subject. We had to tell our teachers what subject matters we wanted to include to get approval. One of my poetry choices was ‘The Lyrics Of Genesis’ and I got the OK for that.
    Seeing the structure of so much of the curriculum imposed on my grandsons makes me realise how much spontaneity and ‘otherness’ seems to have been legislated out.

    Very few mould-breaking developments, in any field, are generated by the current apparently formulaic strictures.
     
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  12. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    I think that was his point. If we apply a test of "that hasn't been necessary in my job" we'll barely teach anything in schools, but in many cases the learning is less about the future usefulness of the knowledge/techniques and more about training our brains for adult life (not to mention exposing kids to the chance to work out what they actually enjoy doing).
     
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  13. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    All these strikes are giving me a window of what life would be like under labour.
    I'm voting Tory.
     
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  14. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    They're going to need a lot more than 1 vote and the way things are going that's all they'll get or deserve.

    Or do I detect a hint of sarcasm:p
     
  15. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I don't think the British public will be fooled by Barmy Starmy.
     
  16. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    When the option is being submerged in dog poo or stepping in it, I'll go for stepping in it all day long.

    or vote Binface again.

    Actually I fancy drawing a large male chicken and balls on my next ballot paper with the phrase "the lot of them" in red crayon undrneath.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
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  17. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Yeah, OK. To be frank I don't know enough about coding to understand what useful skills/training it would give me but I can certainly buy the argument that it has utility beyond the immediately vocational.
     
  18. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I’m not sure that’s how it reads, at least that’s not how I read it.
     
  19. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    That’s right. The British public is notoriously picky about who it will allow to govern it.

    DF46B276-2A99-4F82-9856-0FBE2D627B12.jpeg
     
  20. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    21st century Churchill
     
  21. Filbert

    Filbert Leicester supporting bloke

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  22. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    Don't want to give too much away here but I know someone who’s worked with her. She may be many things but she’s not stupid.
     
  23. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

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  24. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Employers especially those the biggest ones have always had a fear of unions. If they could they would exploit workers to the nth degree to line their own pockets as they used to do. I was just reading about the Matewan Massacre the other day. Incredible how the mine owners treated the miners almost like slaves/serfs. They had to buy everything from a store owned by the mine owner so all the money was kept by him in effect. It all ended in violence but led to the miners union becoming guardian of the miners rights and hugely improved working conditions. Merle Travis wrote the famous song 'Sixteen Tons' describing the shameful exploitation and used in a South Park episode to satirize the treatment of Amazon workers.



     
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  25. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    John Sayle’s film Matewan is terrific.

     
  26. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    You don't have to go abroad to see the same historical fight by unions against injustice. My Dad and I used to do the "Fun in the Sun" holidays to Weymouth twice a year at the start of this century, The breaks were in static caravans, on Haven sites (which were 'alright') at the beginning and ends of the 'season' not especially good for weather but ideal for bream fishing. Part of the drive down used to be the Affpuddle turn-off from the A31 to the A35where directions were clearly marked to Puddletown and Tolpuddle. Both of us were, broadly supportive, of the trade union movement until one very stormy weather wiped out any fishing we decided to go to Tolpuddle to see what made it so special - after spending a day laring about, and walking in the footsteps of the Tolpuddle Martyrs it transformed me into a staunch union man (and an regular attendee at the annual festival).
     
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  27. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Colin from Portsmouth on the doctor’s strike.

     
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  28. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Quite happy no doubt the pigs in the trough brigade earn obscene sums but those that keep society functioning earn a pittance. Does he ever wonder why the NHS has to pay fortunes for agency staff ? Or the loss in taxpayer money where nurses and doctors trained here emigrate because of the poor wages and awful working conditions. That these working conditions affect patients too. Tired staff who cannot give of their best. Outdated equipment and appalling backward hospital design that belongs in the 19th not 21st century (how hospital design has not been looked at for decades amazes me). Yes it's a vocation for many in hospitals but that doesn't mean you treat them like dirt. Those that deserve that are venture capitalists and their ilk.
     
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  29. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Soon to be taking over over all the country's teaching, nursing/medical and public transport duties as well:

    Soldiers to be trained to check passports amid UK fears of summer travel chaos
    Exclusive: Unions say move will diminish national security, with temporary staff unable to detain suspected terrorists


     
  30. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

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