Return of the Soviet Union

'Zhukov's Greatest Defeat' refers to Operation Mars, a strategic level attack by the Soviets against German Army Group Centre in late 1942. It was intended to be launched in mid October and would result in the defeat of German 9th Army and would be followed up by Operation Jupiter, with the strategic aim of destroying the bulk of Army Group Centre.

It was intended to be launched and completed before Operation Uranus, the attack on the encircled Axis forces at Stalingrad. If successful, the German forces on the decisive Berlin-Moscow axis would be unhinged. Delays, largely due to bad weather, meant that the attack was delayed until late November, but with the reduction of Axis forces at Staligrad then underway, Mars was expected to benefit from the diversionary value of Uranus.

In fact however, the German forces opposing Mars were not overstretched like those in the South and Mars was an abject failure. Zhukov continued to reinforce the initial failure to break German lines and wasted thousands of tanks and hundreds of thousands of lives. Soviet losses were around 335,000 men and 1,600 tanks and none of the key objectives were achieved.

Operation Mars was subsequently airbrushed from the history of the war in the East. The victory at Stalingrad was elevated to legendary status and Zhukov was given vastly more credit for it than he was due, whilst his defeat in Mars was dismissed as a diversionary attack intended to tie down German forces and prevent a relief of the 6th Army at Stalingrad. The size of the forces and the strategic intentions of Mars outweighed those of Uranus, but this was simply forgotten in order to protect Zhukov's reputation.

The defeat of Mars left a large bulge into Soviet lines north of the city of Kursk. The later defeat of Soviet forces at Kharkov left a similar bulge south of the city, with Soviet forces marooned in the middle, providing a prime target for German attacks in 1943.

Ultimately, Zhukov's reputation with the Soviet forces and the public at large could not be tainted by such a catastrophic failure. Even now, lazy historical works and documentaries refer to Zhukov as never having been beaten.

'Zhukov's Greatest Defeat - The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942' by David M.Glantz is available from

www.landmarkmilitarybooks.com

 

Nice!

 

mrlizard another question for you as you seem to be the authority on the eastern front. What is your opinion of the historian Anthony Beevor, and in particular his books Berlin - The Downfall 1945 and Stalingrad?

 

I feel he just covers the basics, good for a short summary.

 

To go off topic kind of and start something else.


which country do you think is more democratic Britain or America?

i would say America myself


what do you guys think?


meant to post this on other thread sorry folks.

 

Now there is a complex question.

It is rather funny how two countries who parade around shouting the benefits of a blueprint democracy to other countries have such polarised systems of government.

However, I am nowhere near clued up enough to discuss it properly, my understanding is broad and useless.

 

do you mean they're different? because in the grand scheme of things they are both kind if similar.


also, who wants to talk about northern ireland?

 

The rise and fall of Li'l Hitler, thanks to Robot Chicken

 

Well I heard the IRA army council has disbanded or something similar. Does this mean permanent peace in N.Ireland? I think maybe not, but we'll see.

 

I'm no help with N. Ireland. Despite having a great grandfather who sewed Eamon DeValera's suits, I know very little about the situation. Whenever I asked my grandfather about it, he poured some whiskey over ice and said things that indicated he thought people were really stupid.

 

i think any excuse to grant them full devolution will be seized on. then the status quo of igoring them completely for an electoral term will resume until we need to step in once again. since the end of ww2 its been the wish of every politician to just remove northern ireland from britain.

 

Damn those Ruskies! I told them at the EU summit though, shame all the so called other 'big' European powers were too cowardly and weak to do the same. I can't stand appeasement and as PM I must be strong, as I currently am in weathering our economic storm. Sail with me on the good ship Gordon.

 

I'd love to rig your mast...

 

The point is it wasn't.

 

one of many curb inspired george bush moments. he should get his own show!

 

The Struggle Continues today in Havana!

vs


World Cup Qualifier, first time the two sides have met since 1947, the first time in decades any US team has played in Cuba.

Should be very interesting...

 

i think cuba may have scored a psychological blow today

 

Even the Jews didn't know what was going to happen to them, as you rightly point out, otherwise they would not have gone "like lambs to the slaughter." Whilst they were herded into overcrowded, filthy ghettoes and stripped of their homes and posessions, they were lead to believe that the worst that would happen would be relocation to "the East." As they boarded the trains, the Jews must have felt optimistic that perhaps they were finally going to a better location than the hell of the ghettoes, instead, they were going to their deaths at one of the camps. Indeed, I understand that in some camps, Jews were herded into "shower blocks for delousing" and would not have realised until too late that the gas coming out of the vents was to kill them, not the parasites in their skin.

Once it caught on that the Nazis intended to destroy all Jews in Europe, the Jewish resistance was born and some of the Jews tried to fight back, but it was too little too late to have any real effect on slowing the slaughter.

 

Is it getting colder or is it my imagination?
Russia loans Chavez & Venezuela $1,000,000,000 to buy weapons

 

Ouch.

Thats a pretty penny isn't it?

Have Venezuela been making any unruly noises recently or is this out of the blue?

They signed that energy thing to get Russian gas not so long ago didn't they? Probably just a show of unity to make sure the 'West' doesn't forget about the lovely Ruskies.

 

chavez is an odd fellow. he rallies against america but they're just about the only people who actually pay for his energy instead of exchanging it for doctors or socialist good will.

expect to see alot more of venezuala in the news as chavez rattles his saber to win the upcoming provincial elections

 

fan is probably more up on this than me, but yes, Chavez uses the US as a rallying point for his brand of paranoia politics, like in the 50's here in the US everything was about the commies and now everything is about "te'rr".

 

Americans! Hear the truth!

The government of the US&A has heard the voice of the REVOLUTION!

We have made the primary instruments of capitalism the property of the state!

LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!

PS: I found couple bottles of wine for $1.99 each yesterday. What a country!

 

Have you tasted them yet?

 

thats like a pound! you crazy yanks have done it again

 

Sweet and tangy. Like drinking salad dressing. Somehow it feels right to drink a $1.99 bottle of wine in this economy.

I finished one bottle last night, the next is a goner tonight.

 

i'm going to tesco right now to get some special brew. its the next best thing to rubbish wine, and i can drink it in public without stigma

 

There's something wrong with you.

 

Almost 20 years since communism released it's fist over Eastern Europe. If you don't know much about the break up of communism in Europe over the period 1989-1991 this is quite an interesting little link to the BBC website with an interactive map on the break up of the old order:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7972232.stm

 

GLORIOUS!

 

What a thread!

These were the days...