Question Time

The points you make have some impact, especially the sale of our industry to overseas investors. However, ultimately our citizens demand a higher standard of living than other nations, and without much link to hard work or innovation. That sense of entitlement in the electorate is reflected in the offerings our politicians make as they seek election. I find it hard to envisage a time when we will ever run a surplus again.

 

Minority governments are not conducive when big important decisions need to be made about the economy, with two very differing ideas of which way to go. Scotland may have differing ideas, but the decisions were not as large scale, and the views are generally not as polarised in ideology as they were in the UK parliament.

With plenty of the countries financial recovery and growth dependant on confidence, a minority government would have given little assurance whatsoever.

 

I feel I have a fairly good understanding of economics, but I do think it is quite a useful experience to explain every part of your own beliefs in the most 'layman' of terms, so that others can challenge you. Often I find that saying why? continuously after justifying yourself is a useful exercise in doing so.

You need a certain amount of greed, as you need businesses to expand. Clearly it is worse for a man to hire 5 people and earn £1 million, than it is for a man to hire 50 people and earn 10million. Especially if each of those men command a decent salary.

Of course this requires tax to be paid, and this should be measured on how to get the most tax possible, which should constantly be reassessed. As Warren Buffet answers when questioned, he would not be rich if we were not given amazing opportunities by being able to live in the country he was born in. Paying tax is essential to paying back to give others the opportunities that you have received and thrived upon. In a time when Europe is being seen as less and less useful, this needs to be addressed Europe wide, so that companies cannot drink a cup of Costa, and pay in Starbucks.

As a typical example to be spread over the whole economy: The less profit a company makes, with the government losing the corporations money through tax, the fewer people employed. The less employed, the less tax for the government again. The more people are on benefits, the less money for the government, plus the less worth each person feels and the harder it is for the person to find further employment.

So you can see that employment is the end goal here, and whilst a fair economy is a perfect ideal (and something all governments would love if they could) biting the hand that feeds you can be the wrong way to do it. It is more about creating the ideal conditions for everyone to move up. Obviously you may not agree, but I see taxing the top earners of all of their money like attaching a sack of bricks to the back of Usain Bolt to make the field fairer, rather than using his talent and skill to bring in money from outside sources, which has led to much greater interest and funding for athletics in general.

For me, I think the barriers to entry for new businesses are far too high. Perhaps IT and business should also be compulsorily taught as part of the GCSE curriculum, with introduction to app building, marketing, website creation and selling. Then company creation needs greater financial support and lower entry rates. This is how we can truly create greater social manovrability going forwards.

 

I wonder how Germany manage? ...

Actually I don't, it's their philosophy that does it. They run a much fairer society.

 

Unfortunately the trend is to maximise profits by working employees harder and by introducing technology or cheap foreign labour at reduced cost. Net effects mean that relatively little extra tax is generated but a whole lot of hardship is caused.

 

But I suppose that is a reason why raising taxes won't hero in the long run. It makes a much greater incentive to invest in technology.

 

Technology only gets you so far so you could just as easily argue an incentive to employ more people. More really, nowadays technology is usually the first consideration and thus will be used regardless.

 

I understand that you are a bricklayer, not an easy job to replace with technology. I would have thought that the most important factor in whether you get employed or not, is your cost. My mate is an FD of an East Midlands based construction company (commercial not residential) and he says that brickies pay has gone up around 20% in the past couple of years, with most full time brickies getting between £40,000 and £80,000 (around 2 or 3 times the UK average salary) with the higher earnings in the South East. He says an immigrant brickie can do the same good job as a Brit for far less money. Maybe Brit brickies are trying to "maximise the profit" when selling their labour, and they should consider lowering their rates.

 

I don't think many people would argue with the above. However the human cost of the current downturn has been and continues to be catastrophic for millions of people. We have all suffered, it's that a very small minority are able to absorb the impact more than the overwhelming majority.

The big political parties are weighed down by history and culture creating a vacuum for the likes of Farage and Brand to exploit. Sadly one does it better than the other! Farage has benefitted because he has been able to vent a single-topic frustration felt by many people. He is the current voice of the opposition but his Achilles heel are the people behind him; have you seen his baggage?

Yet to me Brand has a more profound argument, and I was very disappointed that he completely fluffed an opportunity to convey a really important message about the inequality of society. Sadly he now looks like a complete hypocrite because he didn't articulate how the world is changing and that while of course we need wealth, there is an expectation within society for government and business to generate it with far greater humanity and ethicasy. The argument that profit comes before all else must be made redundant, yet we see the same mistakes rearing themselves again and with no-one of influence calling for change.

There is a middle ground where success brings reward not punitive taxes, that co-exists alongside meeting social responsibilities. If Brand had been less sensitive and sulky he'd have catapulted this argument into the public arena far more effectively.

 

"Farage has benefitted because he has been able to vent a single-topic frustration felt by many people. He is the current voice of the opposition but his Achilles heel are the people behind him; have you seen his baggage? "

Indeed. Farage and Tory defectors aside, at present the UKIP candidates are an unimpressive mob, and that's before you get to to some of the whackos they have. They aren't a credible alternative at the moment.

 

Supply and demand, there is a shortage in those areas and brickies are being brought in from elsewhere, this means hotels etc. need to be considered.
And what averages are you using? because we are talking about a skilled workforce here and local conditions.
The nature of the beast means that few self employed builders can boast 100% employment and over time I doubt the average is more than 75% so if they can get it then why should they lower their rates to compete with people that commute here but spend their earnings back in their homelands, where goods and rents are considerably cheaper? Times may be good now but these migrant workers will become a real problem once the demand dries up as it always does.

What about the punishment we put our bodies through? It's easy to forget the physical demands of some jobs if you're sat in a nice air conditioned office. You haven't worked the last 6 weeks on a diet of painkillers while awaiting a shoulder operation.

 

Surely there is an upside as well though Godfather. All things being equal, a person in a trade with physical demands must have a higher life expectancy than those of us that sit in an office all day?

 

Probably not true, I'm continually facing a battle with fitness between jobs (unfortunately I don't live in the South) but when I am working it tends to be quite intense, too intense to be healthy and now I'm in my fifties my body seems to be falling apart

... and of course there's nothing to stop you going to the gym

 

I have no issue with "supply and demand" that is how most businesses are run, I am glad that you feel that in a free market brickies should have every right to demand higher rates (maximise profits) where they can! I am sure that you also are fully behind the freedom that other brickies have, to undercut them, as to think otherwise, would be hypocritical.

I don't know the detail behind the figures, my mate probably doesn't either as he macro manages the finances.

I am afraid I am not really bothered about the physical aspects of bricklaying. It was your choice to follow that route and I am surprised you expect sympathy in this area. Wasn't it you that had little sympathy for the murdered journalists and aid workers in the Islamic State thread because "they put themselves in harms way" - so GF, it was your choice! Most jobs have inherent demands that others do not necessarily appreciate. Someone working behind a desk earning between £40k and £80k will almost be dealing with other psychological pressures and stress that can be equally dehabilitating, that a bricklayer would probably not have to deal with. Others risk their lives doing their job, police, firemen, etc. It was your choice.

 

I have a solution for the tax system.

I propose removing all personal taxes - Income tax, CGT, IHT etc. and having one tax.

VAT.

Set the VAT level to 100% so that the more you purchase, the more tax you pay.



Done.

 

What happens if I earn all my cash here during the week and then go and spend the bulk of it in France every weekend? It will also end the tourism industty in this country.

 

You would have more money to spend abroad.

 

I'm certainly not behind the freedom of bosses to employ cheap foreign labour just to increase their profits. This has a far reaching downside once supply exceeds demand including an enormous extra burden on the taxpayer as native workers are forced onto benefits.

I can't see that 40k is double the national salary but even then you cannot really compare local rates as an example. As mentioned very few self employed builders are in constant work so basically that 40 then becomes 30. The employed ones will be on considerably lower rates.

You know full well I only said that we have no business in these conflict zones, we should not be there in any capacity and let the Arab nations administer it's own aid, they have ample resources. So please don't twist things to make out I'm in support of ISIS when you know it's absolutely not true. I have sympathy for all victims of war, not just the Brits either.

And no I'm not expecting sympathy, I chose my career all by myself. What I didn't choose is the sh!t the greedmongers have put the industry, nay the economy, through.

 

Yeah, that would be considered a bit of a problem for our economy.

 

Well it is hypocritical that you feel you should have freedom to "maximise the profits" on your labour, but employers shouldn't have the freedom to shop around for the best deal with any supplier of goods or services. For you it is "supply and demand" but for employers, it is them being "greedy". You obviously went to Germany in the first place for much the same reason as the foreign brickies are coming here. You know by now, it is often the hypocrisy of your type of position that frustrates me.

No, £40k isn't twice the national average, but then £80k is more than 3 times the national average, and more than that up north, I was just being approximate.

I havn't twisted anything to say you supported ISIL, I was just referring to your comment about the beheaded journalists "That's as maybe but these reporters put themselves in harms way, they took a chance"., but I am glad that your aren't expecting sympathy yourself, but I am puzzled why you raised it in the first place, if you weren't.

 

I've nothing against foreign workers trying to better their lives, not at all and as you've pointed out I've been there myself. There are key differences though not least that there was a huge shortfall of brickies in Germany at the time and most importantly ... WE WERE ACTUALLY MORE EXPENSIVE TO EMPLOY THAN GERMANS but without us the schedules could not be met. I got married and stuck around but when the industry nosedived everyone else returned to Blighty. I struggled but even then I did not work for a pfennig less than the going rate. This is because the German government legislate on more than just a minimum wage, they have a banded system, exactly as I would like to see happen here.

I suggest that 80k might apply for London as the total cost of employing an exceptional brickie at his zenith if it was spread over a whole year but real life doesn't work like that and even basic London hotels are very expensive. These brickies will be on the same prices as the lesser ones and not on an hourly rate. They will be quick and also willing punish themselves with up to 12 hours of working flat out to earn that kind of money, I know I've been there back in Maggies day. However the imported labour will be on much lower rates, they will also be 10 to a house organised by a boss who will be the last to feel the squeeze when it comes and who really won't give a fig about the damage this does to the economy. Yes for the extra profit on those ten he might pay an extra 10 - 20k tax but then the British taxpayers have to pick up the bill for the 10 locals (and their families) he's depriving of work.

You quote me correctly but I certainly didn't then say I had no sympathy for the victim. However my argument stands, we should not be there in any capacity!

LOL I mentioned it because every man and his dog thinks all brickies have an easy job. This may be true for a council plodder but otherwise I can assure you the opposite.

 

I accept what you say about your time in Germany, GF. But you are missing my point still. You say you were more expensive in Germany then, and in the UK now, and that is due to "supply and demand" - suppose you are charging what you think you can get away with. So you are happy to accept the effects of supply and demand when works in your favour (so you can maximise profit on your labour), but not when it doesn't suit you, when someone undercuts you. You expect it both ways, understandable, but hypocritical.

I am not sure, but maybe this scenario is reducing the housebuilding in this country, and by employing brickies on say £30k/£40k instead of £40k/£80k, whilst we controlled immigration. So we could afford far more social houses to be built. At least the pay would be at average pay or higher, more British jobs would be created and everyone would be happy. :naughty:

 

Well all I have to go on is how well it's worked here so far. As far as I'm aware there was no suggestion in the referendum campaign that, in an independent Scotland, the electoral rules would have to change to make it more likely for an election to deliver a government with an overall majority. So I'm suggesting it would continue to work well. The electoral system here is conducive to a spirit of co-operation. You're suggesting it wouldn't and there'd be a lack of confidence both at home and internationally. I'd accept that the UK electoral system is set up to encourage adversarial politics though which makes co-operation more difficult. But we're both speculating and dealing in hypotheticals.

 

Why would any worker undercharge a contractor that isn't undercharging a client? That makes zero sense but it's different when work is scarce, the rates come down (rapidly) as the contractor has to temper his margins or be without work. Unfortunately then it's the exploiters of cheap foreign labour that win as they have room to undercut. This only creates a volatile and unnatural market that allows them to increase their market share in the process. I cut my prices too but I won't deliberately work for nothing which you seem to expect.

Those on big money are on more or less the same prices as the rest but they are far from average brickies and will probably suffer in later life from the abuse and long hours their bodies have taken, a bit like sportsmen IMO but with the ciggies and the booze thrown in.
And you can't just quote someone's best pay packet, multiply it by 52 and call it his annual salary as people like to do. It's pricework and we've all had big weeks.
I expect the average London based trowel, full time and on hourly rates will currently gross about 850 pw which no doubt will drop to 600 when demand drops back to normal.

Well I am sure it's property prices that dictate the market, if we could cut the boom and bust it would solve more problems than just a workers salary.

 

You're missing his point. His point (I think) is that when demand and supply benefit your personal rate you are happy to go along with it, but when companies benefit from supply and demand in the greater scheme of things they are greedy.

 

Yes and no, it's more a matter of extremes and much different figures. Also I do not drive the market as many large companies do.
I'm not anti capitalist but I see a huge need for caps and controls because all conscience has seemingly left today's business environment. Now it really is all down to the bottom line and company bosses no longer seem happy with just a decent standard of living. They want the yachts and the Rollers too and it doesn't matter that they only own a sweet shop.

 

We are dealing in hypotheticals, but I am sure that you will accept that there is a far greater spread of ideologies across Britain then there is across Scotland.

I would argue that this would make compromise far more difficult than it is in Scotland, whereby only 10 percent of seats were won by a right wing party.

I would also argue that if the Conservatives thought that they could do it alone, and avoid joining with a party who are very ideologically different from them, they probably would have done so.

But I take your argument that it is pretty unknown, as the FPTP system is designed to create majority governments, and so the worry over unexplored waters might have influenced their decision making. But I know they were desperate at the time to form a clear-majority government, and were willing to hold another general election over running the country as a minority-govt.

 

GF, you are still avoiding explaining your hypocrisy. It isn't about whether you, alone, can "drive the market", it is about your own mindset in wanting your cake and eating it.

But moving on. I am not sure whether you have just had bad experiences with your employers before, but if you are ever going to be at peace with the world I think that you should understand that it is a very outdated business where bosses believe that the only way to improve profits is to exploit or squeeze the employees to the extreme. Most business owners recognize that productivity improves if staff are happy and well paid. Ok, during a recession labour movement is restricted and dissatisfied workers will just remain in a job doing the bare minimum they can get away with, whilst being as disruptive as they can, but at any other time dissatisfied staff will either just move on, or will just stay and remain inefficient.

But also, notwithstanding the above, most businesses that employ staff are not started by people that want to just to earn a "decent standard of living". They never have been. They want more than that and I know you think that is being greedy. But if they just wanted "average" then they would just be content with an average job or would be sole traders - far less hassle, responsibility and stress, with the result that they would generate no jobs at all. If you cannot accept that then you really need to go and live in somewhere like North Korea or Burma.

Or, start your own business, you seem to think you know where everyone else is going wrong. Practice what you preach!

BTW, these things work in reverse. Most sensible employees will know that their employer will treat them better if they do not ave the impression that their staff are trying to get every penny out of them. Maybe, when you insisted on higher rates than the locals in Germany, you were resented! If I was your boss in Germany, I would have resented you for taking advantage of the situation.

 

Taking away from the fact that British Millionaires might be spending lots of money in this country on flashy things which nobody needs (I certainly would hate to own a Ferrari and have people taking photos of it by the side of the road etc., so I feel no hatred for anybody who does have one)...

I would like to see the percentage of millionaires who own such flashy things. I know a number of millionaires (even though they wouldn't describe themselves as such as a lot of it is in property/ invested), and they seem to want to hide their wealth, rather than show it off. There are obviously a number who do want to flaunt it, but I would be willing to bet that this is a minority rather than a majority.

In the grand scheme of things, it is probably beneficial for us if they do spend excessive money on every excessive item out there. But the majority, seen from my own experiences, wish to save it away for a rainy day, because they know that anything can change, and the thing they value more than anything else is security for their family.

 

I've had my own business ZZ. For several years I ran it as a cooperative and when I wasn't dealing with agents, architects, engineers and clients I was on the tools helping to boost everyone's wages. My lads were among the best paid brickies in London and everyone prospered. However that all changed when most of my main competitors expanded their workforce by importing cheap east europeans until the construction industry in and around London was literally saturated with them. And this was all while it was still pretty good but you could hardly fail to miss the writing on the wall. As business dropped off my ability to compete dwindled to nothing and without resorting to cheap foreign labour ourselves there's no way I and many other subbies could actually compete. I chose not to, we went our separate ways and I left for Germany.

That's how I operate so I can't quite grasp what you mean about having my cake and eating it? I just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work ... for everybody mind, not just myself.

But moving on. My wife works as a manager for a leading and prospering supermarket, all hers are green but yet again no bonus because the company's own unrealistic targets weren't met. This comes on top of yet another year of below inflation pay rises, the fifth in a row I believe and you'd really think they were losing money hand over fist. But no, actually profits have been up every year, the latest excuse is that the competition are doing too well.

Yes I'm cynical sometimes and no I have no desire to go through all that again just to scratch a living.

 

All agreed. Except that the spread of ideologies is just as wide up here, but not so evenly represented. There are far more Tories here than are represented at either Holyrood or Westminster. Whilst delivering a 'fairer' election result, the Scottish system isn't PR. Percentages aren't reflected entirely.

Certainly, I feel I live in a more 'socialist' country though. And was happy, along with friends, to be able to declare Scotland a 'Tory free zone' after the 1997 election.

But things can change quite quickly. Back in the 1950s Scotland had a Tory majority. Then it all changed in the wake of the post WW2 'social contract'. It could change again. And now we have the rise of the SNP and, nationally, UKIP. Will the latter reach their 'threshold moment'?

Not much of the above has a lot to do with the potential prospects for minority government at Westminster. I accept your argument that, as things are currently organised, that would be more difficult to get to work in Westminster as opposed to Hollyrood.

 

I think your own story illustrates where you are going wrong then. Your brickies were the best paid in London, and you are surprised that you couldn't compete and survive! So everyone lost their jobs. Great! Honestly, what do you expect to happen! If a shop sells washing machines at a higher cost than available elsewhere, then it won't get the business.

As I said, you expect yourself and your fellow brickies to insist higher pay when there is sufficient demand, but you also expect your customers not to shop around when looking paying for brickies. You are wanting your cake and eating it!

I read that Tesco make about £1 profit in every £40 they take at the tills at the moment. Margins won't be that much better with their competitors, I am sure. That doesn't leave that much room for wage increases without leaving the situation as precarious. All major supermarkets are losing trade to Aldi, etc. and that must be a consideration.

I attend a lot of network meetings and business get togethers, including at the local chambers of commerce. It is quite clear that many self employed, small businesses owners and sole traders are now living on less than they were pre recession, let alone receive any sort of increases.

 

I don't have a lot to offer on the current brickie v business war currently raging. But I would say this.

I'm not particularly concerned if a brickie can coin it in at 80k p.a. when times are good or has to get by on 30k p.a. when times are harder. Whether that be here, Germany or Myanmar.

What concerns me more is that there are eastern European brussel-sprout pickers toiling in the fields of Lincolnshire under floodlights right now, exploited by gang-masters who are little better than drug -pushers, without any employment protections and rights and adherence to minumum standards. Those standards were hard won, and if we don't apply them and enforce them across the board, whatever the labour force, then it demeans our nation.

Does anyone care?

 

Woah! my men took cuts just as everyone else did, well over 60% but still we ended up scratching our backsides much of the time. Things got that bad even the rogue subbies were going bust and that's with paying their Poles no more than we would be able to get from the dole.

Not only that, I sold my Wembley flat and used a big chunk of it to bale out the lads in between the few jobs we did get so feck off with this cake and eat it bullsh!te, you could not be more wrong.


Edit: And if my core six were London's best paid brickies it was for a reason and not just the goodness of my heart. On larger jobs I'd bring in others that weren't so good and weren't on the same deal.

 

Godfather = loyal
ZZ Top = dis-passionate