Very creative analogy but I tend to look on the Pozzo ownership as one era with input from Gino and his father to varying degrees throughout. I believe the golden era was down to the quality of the cavalry sent from Italy in those first 2 years and then some astute decision making in the first 3 years or so of life in the prem. Not sure which year it was that Gino took over completely but I think it would be tough to claim that all successes up to 2019 could be attributed to his father and all failure since was down to Gino. Wasn’t the switch over pretty early on in the Pozzo ownership era ?
But that's at the heart of my analogy. The ball thrower imparts a very large upward force, for a very short time (< 1 second) - the effect of which is seen as a long upward path, even though they have ceased to be in contact with the ball.
Yes I know, I don’t think it’s a great analogy. The direction a club is travelling in when a manager or owner changes will obviously affect the immediate post-change future but months, years down the track performance has to be wholly down to the new incumbent. I have no issue in the general conclusion that Gino has been less successful than his father but don’t think that 2016-2019 success can be entirely attributed to Pozzo senior.
Originally when Papa Pozzo was running the club I was all for them, but since Baby Pozzo took over we have been in slow decline that is now rapidly gaining pace!!! Time for The Pozzos to go me thinks!!!
Still was riding on the coattails of his father tbf, and while I'm not suggesting it was 'easy' for us to stay in the Prem, we were lucky that a number of established teams lurched from crisis to crisis around that time
I still fondly remember that 2-2 draw at Everton on our return. Iggy putting John Stones on his arse after turning him inside out to score will always make me smile.
Haha that’s ridiculous. So the whole success of the 2014-2019 era was due to riding on his father’s coattails, his father who’d run the club for 2 promotion-free seasons in the championship?? I get the criticism of Ginos decision-making over the last few seasons but to claim that he deserves no credit at all for the second most successful period in the clubs history because that whole period was set up by his father is nuts.
From 11-12 to 12-13 we went from mid table mediocrity to within a game of the Prem, those were the hard yards, and we kept the core of that squad, I wouldn't say it was 'easy' to get promoted from there, but the foundations were set
...we kept the core of that squad and in 2013/14 we then finished bottom half in the champ having lost more than we won ?? To suggest that it was all set up for promotion followed by 5 years in the prem from that point, suggests someone who is trying very hard to give zero credit to Gino for the good times alongside the current deserved criticism.
Giampaolo Pozzo was not all that hands-on, even at the start. He wasn't always based in England. He was the owner but the day-to-day running of the club was down to others, chiefly Gino but also the likes of Carnevale and Nani, who were crucial to the multi-club scouting network model. Giampaolo was the head of the family, sure, and he'd run Udinese for years and was still top of the family and the organisation, but in 2012 he was already 71 and was winding down and handing over to others. In 2013 I commissioned a piece by a very well-respected Italian journalist called Paolo Tomaselli of the top newspaper Corriere della Serra. He went to meet Giampaolo Pozzo. Paolo had covered Serie A for years and knew Udinese well. He met him in Udine, where Giampaolo worked the majority of the time. I'm not trying to minimise Giampaolo's role or significance but this narrative that somehow it was Daddy's toy and it only got broke when he handed it to his son is not accurate. Let's give Gino credit for the successes and hold him accountable for the failures because they all happened on his watch. Suggesting that someone else was responsible for the good times and he just wasn't up to the job isn't only inaccurate but, in a way, also let's him off the hook.
This last bit is exactly where I stand. Gino Pozzo was instrumental in getting Watford promoted in 2014-2015 and in keeping us in the Premier League against all odds. The club's scouting model worked well, we were shrewd with some key signings that added real quality, and as much as they got some head coaching decisions wrong, they adjusted course when needed. Equally, Gino Pozzo is to blame for the current plight. The reality is pretty stark: The scouting model has fallen behind the curve, with a large network but nowhere near the data and analytics capabilities of similar clubs. The multi-club approach is now as much about moving money and cast-offs as moving quality players to where they are needed. The head coaching hiring process is a farce, with Gino clearly unable to evaluate coaching talent in this environment and making bad choice after bad choice. The squad building has been poor, with nowhere near the quality in the squad that we had in 2012-2015, while senior football figures with vague job roles seemingly clash with each other rather than find the level of talent we need. There's no evidence Gino is listening to the feedback or changing his ways. While they have persisted with Ismael, they have not backed him with a promotion-quality squad. Maybe this year they don't think it is worth doing so. But none of it inspires confidence in his continued leadership of the club.
I’m amongst the biggest Gino critics, but it just doesn’t fit to say the success we had was all down to his dad and then the failures all down to him. It conveniently ignores the fact Udinese have been in decline in the same timeframe, it’s not been as dramatic because they are far more established in their league, and the financial disparity in Serie A is nothing like it is in the PL, so it’s much easier to outperform bigger teams with a bit of smart operation. But they’ve gone from a club in and around the champions league places, to a club who could afford to send us half a team of players too good for the championshi and still compete fine themselves, to a club who can’t spare us a single player and who are battling relegation. In fact, if it wasn’t for our own demise they probably would’ve been relegated long ago as they’ve benefited massively from taking on our players in the last couple rid years.
It's not about them choosing not to back VI. We are skint. Choice to spend more is not a luxury we have.
This sort of comment from the WO pages probably sums up why Gino doesn’t feel any pressure in response to someone saying he is the main problem at the club . “Do you know that owners don’t just come along and buy a club? There isn’t a queue of people waiting to buy. You don’t just wave goodbye’, and forget any suggestion of Elton, he’s served his time” Maybe a sense of general apathy and thinking there isn’t much we can do so no point in making a fuss . Have to say the attitude on that site is very much the manager has to go and no one else is to blame .
I take yours and ETG's points, but the season we came 13th we did have Abdi missing for most of it, and Vydra didn't come back until the next season, with those two back, plus some shrewd additions, the foundations were more solid than a 13th placed finish would suggest
I thought he was banned from running Udinese after the 1990 match fixing scandal, but was allowed to own the club. Or was that ban lifted?
I'm not sure if or when the ban was lifted but what I know about Italian sports governance, allowing him to carry on owning the club while being banned from running it would likely have been little more than a cosmetic measure anyway.
Maybe, but I don't believe that promotion and 5 years in the prem were nailed on at that stage. Gino has to have some credit for that, alongside the carnage of the last few years.
Unless you are a Fulham or a Leicester, with parachute payments up to your eyeballs, I don't think any promotion is nailed on, and nor is staying up for 5 seasons, although I have said on many occasions that we had it slightly easier back then when it came to staying up
It's also worth noting that if our success in those first seven years was nothing to do with Gino and all the work of Giampaolo, it would appear an odd choice for the 1881 to create a huge, clearly complimentary banner with both Gino's name and face emblazoned on it and regularly display it at home games circa 2016.
The WO comments section has even less relevance than this forum in terms of indicating the general supporter feeling. You should stop paying so much attention to it.
Fair enough . They probably haven’t worked out that we do the easy part of getting rid of the manager but don’t then replace them well . And there is no long term strategy so talk of give a new manager time to asses the squad won’t work as it doesn’t happen .
It’s very much feels like they give Pozzo and co a free ride and everything is down to the manager being “negative, dull arrogant” etc .
I don't buy into this Giampaolo instead of Gino theory particularly myself, but I'm sorry, are you suggesting the cosmetic preferences of an embryonic 1881 supporters' group is evidence of the inner workings of the highest echelons of the club, that even the most favoured journalists aren't allowed proper knowledge of?
Think his point is just that the revisionism that puts Giampaolo at the helm in the good times and Gino there as the ship sinks isn't quite matched by the popular sentiment from the time, which clearly gave Gino the credit.
Not at all - rather that from an entirely non-scientific, optical perspective, we as fans (or at least, our most active matchday supporters' group) appeared to apportion significant credit to Gino for the relatively rosy times we were experiencing approximately four years into their ownership, which seemingly directly conflicts the idea that he was nowhere to be seen prior to our troubles (irrespective of the actual truth behind who was doing what at the time).
But (again), I'm not saying I agree with it, but no one's saying Gino was 'nowhere to be seen', they're saying the phantom hand of big Pozzo was actually guiding his on the tiller up until that point. Who the 1881 gave credit to at the time doesn't really tell us anything, other than, if the theory were true, they were as thoroughly bamboozled as anyone. And that's not very surprising, particularly given the 1881's recent behaviour and interactions with this very forum
So maybe Giampaolo's hand is still guiding Gino's on the tiller and we should possibly reserve some criticism for him for the past five years? Do we have any evidence that he doesn't influence his son's decision making today? (I'm aware that you're in the Gino over Giampaolo camp too so I'm really just musing out loud here). Either way, I hope we're both right for the 1881's sake, otherwise they have managed to drop a very expensive, time-consuming clanger by crediting the wrong man all along.
Slightly off topic but anyone had the chance to listen to the latest FTRE pod? Gino must have got in their ear as its been nearly 54 minutes of basically digging out the fans for getting frustrated about the ponderous play at home, almost that it's our fault we're so crap. . Best of it being their stats (the guy who provides these is very good) actually support why we're getting annoyed
Think I have found someone like that under Bailey’s Dad. https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/s...fear-sack-watford-fans-angry/#comments-anchor
