Playing Out From The Back

Boring when it works, needless goals conceded when it doesn't. Pep has a lot to answer for. I hate it.

 

Utd playing good old fashioned hoofball!! Non of this tippy tappy stuff, and it's working so far!!!

 

I think, for better or worse, the EFL actually implementing punishments for flouting FFP has had a negative impact on the competitiveness of the Championship, it all started with Brum getting points deducted in about 2019, ever since then, the teams getting promoted have been more predictable (I don't suppose Covid helped in this regard!)

 

I reckon the playoffs make the championship much more exciting. So many teams in with a chance of promotion or relegation with a couple of games left.

I couldn't really care which of the big 6 wins the prem. About the only mild amusement is when one of them fails to qualify for Europe and loses loads of money like man u recently.

Dave Sexton said to Bill Shankly, have you heard of the northbank, Highbury? Shanks says no I don't think so...but I've 'eard of the Watford ROOKERY!

 

I think teams knowing more about each other is a double-edged sword, it's great for the teams, but a lot of that information goes towards planning to stop the opposition rather than doing your own thing. To take an example, I bet if Pele emerged in the present day, everyone in Europe would have known about him by 16, he'd have been picked up already (for tens of millions of £/€) and everyone else would have a detailed dossier with all his stats and a plan to stop him rather than just learning on the job like they would have done when he first emerged

 

I don't have a problem with playing from the back per se, and I don't think the long ball forward should necessarily be the way forward (a 3 man midfield and 1 up top is increasingly the way, so unless your 1 up top is very good you run the risk of the ball coming straight back at you, especially when that striker is Rajovic or Dennis), but while a lot of the flak when it goes wrong is on the defenders, I think the midfield seem to escape from criticism. What are the defenders supposed to do if you have a strikers who aren't a physical presence, but the midfielders aren't calling for the ball? It's no surprise that the one sustained period of form we've had since the Cup final was the half season when we had Hughes in the team in the Championship, nobody we've had in that position since then has been willing or able to pick the ball up from the defence and get the ball forward

 

I agree the playoffs are the best invention ever. I’d expand them to top 8 with only 1st place guaranteed promotion but might be a bit too American!

 

The National League playoffs are great, it gives a proper advantage to coming in the higher spots, but it doesn't seem to have had an impact on the drama

 

How about the PL going full on American? The champion decided by a knockout competition between the 8 finishing top in the 'regular' season?

 

And Mult-eye ball!!

 

It’s right to say there is little or no movement from our central midfielders showing for the ball, except to come short for a pointless wall pass back to the defender, but I think they are conditioned to not expect a straight forward pass into the midfield area. When Watford play out from the back the pattern is always the same: the ball goes across from one centre-back via the goalkeeper to the other (wide) centre-back - and sometimes back again - but the pass out when it comes is always out to the wing, usually the fullback. He then often finds the opposition have moved across to cover and there is no way to progress the ball forward up the wing, so he turns and plays it back again. Contrast this with the way the top teams play: the central midfielders are looking for the ball and move into a space where the defender can play a straight pass forward. The midfielder receives the ball on the turn and the attack begins well inside the opposition half giving lots of options to pass the ball wide or feed a striker.

 

Half time shows at games. Thats the way forward. Get James Arthur waddling about at Selhurst or something.

 

I've always imagined this to the tune of Lord of the Dance. How does it actually go?

 

It went

Dur-dur-dur-dur, Dur-dur-da,
Dur-dur-dur-dur, Dur-dur-DA,
Dur-dur-dur-dur-da
Dur-dur-durda DURDA!

 

I hate it being done as gospel.

Like when the opponents are doing a high press and shutting down the out ball. Surely a longer pass into the channel works as it does 2 things:

1 Exploits some space where they've committed men forward.

2 Makes them not bring 6 men up on the the edge of our box next time.

It's so easy to play against when you're one dimensional. Watford next up? Apply the press, push up on the 2 wide men and they'll give us an Xg base of 1.2 before we've done anything with our own possession.

 

Problem with our squad is we don't have the pace to take advantage of other teams' high lines...

 

The team I'm working for in Italy (where incidentally I get to have a weekly meeting with a lovely ex horn, bearded Italian) this season just scored this after an opponents horrific attempt at playing out from the back which made me think of this thread.

 

Far worse places to work by the looks of it!

 

Does look incredible, not had the chance to go out there yet though!

 

Yes this is a good and important point.

There's also another side of that equation which you've missed - not only do clubs lower down the pyramid want to attract good loans to them from the PL clubs, but they also want to attract big bids for their own players from the PL clubs, and they are more likely to do that through developing players capable of playing the kind of controlled, passing football which the top clubs want.

A PL club will be more likely to look at a buying a young Championship CB who has been trained to be composed on the ball, than one who is used to hoofing it under any pressure, for instance.

 

@reids are you aware of any teams/managers in the UK or internationally who go against the trend and do play long ball?

Do they have any success?

Wimbledon went through the divisions and won the cup through upsetting conventions with a long ball game. I wonder that no manager is inspired to give it a similar go in these times.

 

I would argue that Wimbledon (and Cambridge under Beck) just used an extreme version of what was already a trend at the time, rather than “upsetting conventions”.

 

I'm absolutely sure some do, however there's not many names immediately springing to mind. A lot of teams in the top division in Portugal defend very deep, don't press much and are very "direct" in their attacks, as the top 4 (Porto, Benfica, Sporting + Braga) teams in the league are incredibly hard to beat if you try to beat them at their own game. Then after the top 4 a majority of the teams are actually incredibly close in terms of quality to each other, so each season becomes a sort of cagey affair where they try not to

A) get battered by the top 4
B) Try to nick points off the other teams and desperately trying not to lose those to keep them up with the pack.

I realise that does sorta sound the same as every other league, but it's definitely heightened in Portugal and games seem less open than in other leagues i've seen.

 

Had to laugh when reading the Elton and Taylor book that Southampton were complaining that we were too direct for the First Division, as if Southampton were some sort of standard-setters in how the game should be played like Ajax lol

 

Rob Edwards at Luton (though not Rob Edwards at Watford).

 

Regarding playing out from the back then this is only possible if the opposition allows you to do this .
Secondly I would imagine a Premier Division team is looking for a player in the lower divisions that is either a bag of tricks , has blistering pace , can score or can pick a forward pass or preferably all of them as opposed to someone who is just neat and tidy .

 

Another triumph for playing out from the back strategy in yesterday's match.

Bachmann plays the pass that always causes the biggest arse clench anxiety - the 15 yard slow punt directly forwards and straight to a single defender who has about 3 hungry looking opposition all rapidly closing him down. Sure enough, the defender makes a mess of it and a gilt-edged goal chance results. So fortunate not to concede from that.

I've seen variations on that scenario over and over again in various matches. I bet if I watch the EFL highlights show, there will be at least one goal conceded doing that stupid move.

If I were manager and wanted to play out from the back, I would at least insist my keeper played it out wide to full backs or wingers either side.

 

Yes I just don't believe it works for anyone but the teams with the very best players in the top 2 leagues. Risks outweigh the rewards.
Howver as has been pointed out, if you want to loan from, or sell players to, the best sides you sort of have to play the way they want their players to play.

 

There is absolutely no problem going longer if you have willing runners up top. Hitting a percentage ball into the channels causes defences all kinds of problems whether the forward gets there or not. Defenders do not want to be facing their own goal all the time. I'm not saying go long always just mix it up a little.

 

The key there is hitting that ball into the channels sufficiently accurately to give the defenders a problem. If you can get it into an area that gives them a decision as to whether the CB or FB has to deal with it as they are forced to turn to face their own goal, then that opens an opportunity, providing you have a wide player and a striker chasing them with intent. All sorts of mayhem can follow....IIRC Ian Bolton, especially, spent a good deal of time practising that exact skill, with the target areas being defined by cones. Of course it helped having such as Cally, Barnes & Luther chasing down the defenders. It also helped that Bolton & Rostron were experienced at playing in midfield so probably had a higher level of ball-playing skills than a lot of defenders.
Of our current bunch of defenders, I can only see Hoedt being able to try it regularly.

 

Let's face it GT basically played a long ball game, although it was a bit more sophisticated than just hoofing it up pitch in hope.

His teams were called long ball teams by the media and many of the purists, even though we know there was a bit more to them than that and we had great success with them.

Therefore I would be more than happy if we were to go back to "Gods" style of playing, and I am sure most people on this forum would be as well.

 

I refer you to the post above yours with reference to what is required to play a predominantly ‘long ball’ style.

 

Ian Bolton was simply magnificent at this. I agree but in all honesty even getting the defensive line turned the opposite way is enough to cause mayhem. Having to clear on their wrong foot can have it's advantages. Belgium did it with a percentage ball into an area that Dunk messed up resulting in a goal for them.
But yes you need runners and I believe Dennis and Bayo showed they're upto it.
It's an option that's not used enough. Don't get me wrong it's not the only option. But like you I'm a little old school and think it certainly has its merits in todays game. Man City's keeper is known for a few assists and if they can do it so can any club.

 

Preston.