Grenfell Tower - 6th Anniversary

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, Jun 14, 2023.

  1. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    6 years since the Grenfell Tower fire killed 72 people.

    Still nothing done.

    Clear and blatant corporate and Tory local authority failings, coverups and corruption in all areas.

    But still nobody charged and far less looking out from behind bars as they ought to be. Not one.

    An absolute scandal, really.
     
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  2. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I remember at the time, after seeing the devastation fairly closely, thinking something has to change, this horror is way too much. But it hasn’t.

    I’m not even sure everyone is rehoused permanently.
     
  3. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    It seems incredible that the bloody place hasn't been pulled down yet.
     
  4. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Anyone else have that sinking feeling of ‘where and when will the next one be?’
     
    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin likes this.
  5. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

  6. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Inquiry report due out 'soon' apparently. Will we then see some people go to prison as they richly deserve?

    Since these would be high ranking company directors and richies, we already know the answer to that is NO!

    Even though they coldly admit to falsifying tests and certificates and selling as much of their firetrap cladding and insulation as possible, while knowing very well that it was highly flammable.

    As much oil based product in the plastic on a clad tower block as in an oil tanker they were warned. 'You've obviously confused me with someone who gives a shít" the cladding companies literally responded.

    If you didn't listen to the enquiry, which was hugely shocking, then I would urge you to listen to this more recent BBC short series on the subject. Corporate deceit, government deregulation (getting rid of 'red tape' and 'health and safety gone mad') and a cowboy construction industry on a race to the bottom. All things that have made Britain the state it is today.

    As the series points out early on, probably the biggest villain of the piece, the person with most blood on their hands, the one who really belongs behind bars is Margaret Thatcher. Before 1984, building regulations were an act of parliament, which strictly laid down all safety aspects of architecture. But the Iron Lady gleefully swept all that nonsense away and forged ahead with a new spirit of enterprise and 'can do' privatisation. Now buildings only had to "adequately" resist fire, which let the corporate profit seekers and dodgy builders do pretty much whatever they wanted.

    The problem is that these attitudes are most definitely NOT only in construction. It's in every aspect of working life. Cut costs, bend the rules, pointing out dangers is 'being negative' etc.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m00201xv?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
     
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  7. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    A very fair summary of the, frankly criminal events, leading to this scandalous tragedy.

    Be very wary about going down the 'soundbite science' route. There are (and have been for decades) a bewildering array of commercially available and safety certified flame retardant, self-extinguishing and non-smoke generatinh inclusions that can be, and are, added to polymers/plastics/composites. The fact that they weren't used, presumably in the name of the "bottom line", is horrifying. I would hope any litigation would end in numerous charges of corporate manslaughter.
     
  8. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Yep, proper fireproof panels were offered to the (Tory) council, but they chose the cheaper ones instead. Nobody knows or will confess to being the one who did that.

    As for the fire tests, they tried them, they failed spectacularly - a raging inferno that nearly set light to the laboratory - so they added Magnesium Oxide boards which won't burn in any circumstances (what they use in incinerators) and then, amazingly, the panels passed the test. The certificate they got was ONLY for use of those panels in that configuration with magnesium oxide, but they hid that and splash advertised their shhitty product as "Suitable for Buildings Over 18 Metres Tall". They were worried that some of the photos from the test showed the magnesium oxide boards in place, so they got rid of them by producing a 'condensed' report with the offending photos removed. Quite literally murderous criminal behaviour in pursuit of extra profit that directly led to those deaths.

    Whilst (of course) the directors and bosses are entirely innocent according to them and knew nothing about anything, I felt very sorry for the lad they put in charge of the testing. Jamie Hayes his name is and he is one of the few to have been honest and remorseful at the inquiry. They told him they wanted these panels to pass the test. The tests cost a lot of money. When he pointed out about the inferno, he was told he was being "negative" which wasn't good for his career. He was only 22 and it was his first job. He joined as an administrative assistant and then they made him a 'technical services officer' even though he had no qualifications in that line and knew nothing about it.

    Was it your view or understanding at the time that Celotex was engaged in a deliberate attempt to create a misleading test report?

    Hayes replied: “Yes. That’s exactly what was happening.”

    Millett asked: “Were you concerned about that?

    Hayes responded: “I was very concerned about that.

    Asked why he did not challenge it, he said: “It’s not an easy question to answer. My understanding was, and now, is that a decision had been made by the senior management of Celotex. I didn’t know who I should speak to or who I could speak to. I lacked, I guess, the life experience to find the right way forward, and it was a failure of courage and a failure of character and a failure of moral fibre on my part not to do so.

    He is being hard on himself. We all know that corporate culture. Never mind the rules, never mind safety, never mind the law - just get it done! Would you, dear reader, have had the courage, character and moral fibre to have stood up to Celotex's bullying bosses at the age of 22 in your first job? To be honest I doubt I would have. Nobody wants the sack or to make the bosses angry.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    A better corporate culture where speaking up is encouraged could save lives and companies from ruin, ignominy.

    But that would be a bit ‘woke,’ wouldn’t it?

    Meanwhile, another cladding fire is raging.
    https://news.sky.com/story/over-200-firefighters-respond-to-fire-at-east-london-tower-block-13123366
     
  10. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Building with similar cladding on fire in Dagenham today. Luckily it was much higher up the building, probably more escape routes and firefighters now know that the stay put policy doesn’t apply with these buildings
     
  11. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    "The web of blame" presented by Counsel to the inquiry:

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    The NHBC is a useless money hole if ever I've experienced one.
    Regulated by the FCA which is another.
     
  13. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

  14. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    ... A fridge fire that got out of control and ignited flammable cladding that had been put up without the manufacturers or sellers making anyone aware of the fire risks.

    Not just a freak fire that got out of control, a chain of criminal negligence and decisions made with profit as the driving motivator.
     
  15. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    No one should have any doubt that this was a consequence of privatisation.

    That’s not to say that private companies cannot act safely but their role in public services is to row back regulation until it is useless. This is an alliance made in hell by Governments and the private sector to provide cheaply while skimming off the cream for shareholders.

    From the Survivors Group statement.

    The recommendations published today are basic safety principles that should already exist, highlighting how the government's roles, duties and obligations have been hollowed out by privatisation.

    "Where voids were created as the government outsourced their duties, Kingspan, Celotex and Arconic filled the gaps with substandard and combustible materials.

    They were allowed to manipulate the testing regimes, fraudulently and knowingly marketing their products as safe.
     
  16. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    The quiet dignity of the survivors is humbling.
     
  17. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    The fire brigade didn't know how to evacuate a high-rise block of flats that was obviously burning down??!! What the f..k is going on here?
     
  18. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Yes there were MANY failings on the part of the LFB unfortunately in many aspects. Not to detract from their heroism and putting themselves in danger etc, but some went charging off on their own being the hero rather than getting orders and being part of a coordinated response.

    Every single aspect was shocking from every party involved. The council, the inspectors, the architects, the suppliers, the installers, the fire testers, the MP - everyone. All absolutely rotten and as pointed out above - with almighty money (i.e. capitalism and the profit system) at its core. Again. As always.

    I sympathise with the campaigner resident fella who was ignored and brushed off by the high-ups on every side. He was a nuisance they said. You can imagine I have been a nuisance many times like that over the years and the brush off cold shoulder is the routine response.
     
    Moose likes this.
  19. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    P.S.

    I would again strongly recommend listening to that BBC short series I linked to above which details the aspects better than I can.

    Alternatively listen to Marcio Gomes 999 call audio as he escapes with his pregnant wife and two young daughters from the 21st floor down endless flights of smoke-filled stairs and loses contact with them in the process. Remember this is because of things like automatic smoke extractors not working, sprinklers not being installed, automatic closers just being removed from front doors if they malfunctioned by the council, slapdash fire inspections done remotely from Manchester in a copy and paste style, not even clear numbering of the floors so the firefighters could know where they were, the failure of their radios - as I say, every single aspect was awful, shoddy and the minimum they could get away with.

    Unfortunately Mrs Gomes lost her baby during the tragedy. How do those corporate profit seeking bastards put that right?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46156641
     
  20. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Grenfell was the lead story on the front page of all but one newspaper today, the Telegraph.

    I wonder why this is of less importance to it than every other outlet but I don’t wonder for long.
     
  21. With A Smile

    With A Smile First Team

    This is quite scary. Everyone relying on someone else to make the right decisions, looking at others to blame, rather than taking responsibility themselves.

    Its going to be a bit like Hillsborough or the blood scandal. Some people will be prosecuted, not enough, probably not all the people that should. It won't be all the decision makers or people that ignored all the advice over so many years. Ultimately people being prosecuted won't make it right, won't make it better.

    The people that have died have still died. The people that were injured were still injured. The people that are still suffering will still suffer. The odd prosecution to a very small proportion of people or companies involved won't bring people back, it may feel like they have some justice for a short while, but once that feelings gone they still won't have their loved ones for ever.



     
  22. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    I'm sure you don't mean it to sound like this but saying that prosecutions won't bring people back, heal injuries or ease suffering really has the tendency to sound like it's a waste of time, money and energy to prosecute people who were criminally negligent so why bother.

    This is the classic mantra of the controlling classes and big business – this idea that people's lives are disposable and cannot be allowed to impede the rich and powerful in their pursuit of more money and power.

    The people whose decisions and actions cost lives absolutely must be pursued to the full extent of the law because in a civilised, just society the criminally negligent must face the consequences of their actions. We live in a country where the rich and powerful are very keen on telling everyone how keen 'people' are to move on. And as a results mistakes are repeated and the criminally negligent get away with things. It really is the most appalling way to carry on.

    Britain – the expensive poor country where the rich know the price of everything and the value of nothing – places so little value on the lives of the least wealthy as it is. The people who developed and sold the cladding were negligent. The politicians who eased the regulations. The watchdogs that didn't do enough watching. They should all be held to account, otherwise we may as well just have a free-for-all where you and I can just do what we like and damn the consequences.

    Some of the rich only understand money. Perhaps if their liberty were to be compromised they'd understand there's more to life.
     
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  23. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

  24. With A Smile

    With A Smile First Team

    The people and companies responsible have to be prosecuted, that's just not in question.

    Unfortunately it will only be a small minority of those involved. In reality there should literally be several hundreds companies, auditors, directors, politicians, ministers, decision makers who should be prosecuted. If they were involved or knew and did nothing then they are responsible. Realistically it will only be a proportion of those involved.

    Once the prosecutions, cases, sentences are all done, once compensation is paid, everyone involved in this horrific incident will soon forget those prosecuted and and justice served. The life long scars they have suffered will still be there.


     
  25. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

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