General Election - Who do we vote for

The majority of the things drummed up by ukip are to incite fear. Don't be fooled into thinking the EU rules Britain, how many times do you hear judges complaining about EU laws? The majority of laws in the EU are there to protect our human rights, or work on global issues like climate change, which are some of the best reasons to be in Europe.

Elected governenents are usually too scared to be seen giving lots of money to issues that do not affect the next 4 years, as they are not incentivised to do so. The EU are not just making crazy rules to suppress the Brits.

The thing we do really badly as a country is be entrepreneurial. We need to remove barriers to start businesses as currently the risks are too great. The most important thing is education (without losing the ability to work hard), as that gives us a competitive advantage. I would happily pay more for an English builder or plumber if they did a better job, but many just sit around taking three times as long as taking more shortcuts.

Finally, I was at a psychology lecture last week which discussed the fear of the stranger and how certain groups exploit this. Farage is latching on to the same method that many leaders have done in the past: take advantage of uncertain financial times, create an us vs them scenario, show the common touch, play on the innate fears which we all have.

 

Think long and hard if you are planning to vote for UKiP.

They mention we will open up trade to the world but that goes against economies of scale, and the bargaining chip that counties are more likely to trade with us because we can easily move their goods to Europe. And just think, how will Europe negotiate with us of we bail when the economy is at the bottom. And what happens if it improves and gradually becomes stronger than us.

You are sending out a message that we want to be more isolated. Have no say on what is going on around us. That we as a population are too weak to compete with those who come from an Eastern European education, and want to stick to our own ethnicity (whatever that is).

Look at the percentage of the budget that goes to Europe and it is minuscule. Yes, too much still, but that can be improved.

Just think, why do all leaders of the main parties, bar UKIP and the BNP believe in Europe, considering they know far more about it than we do. Okay maybe discard Ed, but the sentiment is the same.

In all walks of life, we are better when we join together and cooperate. When we are scared, we naturally close our curtains and lock the doors. But the streets are safe.

Don't let the fear get to you.

 

Oh! I understand it all right ZZ, and fan is a perfect example of the worst side of it :

 

Interesting summary Mike.

One thing I would like to pick up on.

The financial transaction tax is one crazy rule focused primarily at the Brits, designed to grab a share of the LSE takings to fund Europe directly.

We do not need a European parilament to make our laws, we have an elected parilament in Westminster to do that. Coming out of Europe means that we can choose to implement the useful laws they propose and choose to ignore the crazy ones they try and force on us. Best of both worlds and we save millions per day in doing it.

If we left:
Europe will continue to trade with us on the same terms, we are a net importer of their goods, it is not in their interest to inflict levies on us.
We can refuse to take in cheap foreign meat which is poorly regulated and force our food manufacturers to use locally sourced and higher quality meat, providing a boost to the farming economy.
We can renegotiate the trading terms we had with commonwealth countries which were far more advantageous than those that we had to drop and were imposed on us when we joined Europe. The ability to cut separate deals is cruicial.
We can agree to retain the free movement of people with a caveat that they should not be on a terrorist watch list or convicted of a serious crime.
We can decide to expel people not condusive to the country's good based upon our laws, values and decision without being overruled.

Europe isn't all bad but we have to take the rough with the smooth. Opting out means we can pick and choose what we adopt. I have yet to see one coherent argument to keep us in, that doesn't focus on a law or practice that we can't adopt if opted out. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but I'm voting on my way home tonight so you'd better be quick.

 

I have the list in full.

Julian No-Chin Nicebutdim. (Con)
Prunella Posh-Wellmeaning (Lab)
Dave Spart (Workers Revolutionary Freedom for Bushey Heath)
Debbie Spart (Workers Revolutionary Freedom for Bushey Arches)
Geoffrey Beard (Lib Dem)
Helen Tofusandal (Green)
Barry Mildly-Racist (UKIP)
Ken Nazi (BNP)
Yukan ***ovinall (Lack of Respect Party)
Z.Z Top (Monster Raving Loony)

 

Good post. But I am a bit fearful of coming out, even though it would be better for us in the long run.

I think you are right about being able to replace EU free trade with trade agreements, but I think it will take a few years as there will be a certain amount of animosity against us, and such agreements will be initially delayed for petty "revenge".

I also have concerns about inward investment from the Far East and the US, if we were outside the EU.

But I also think that if we were outside the EU then the right government can take the opportunity to make the UK a real magnet for outside businesses which would create 000's of jobs, if only we can get away from this jealous desire to tax the businesses too heavily.

But, because we are likely to be flipping back and forth with a Labour government over the years, we will not be able to create the right environment for growth and opportunity which we will need if we go it alone. So at the moment, I am marginally in the 'stay in' camp.

 

I've got a feeling this is why Labour are firmly in the no referendum camp.They don't have the balls (forgive the pun) or ability to manage the economy properly. It does worry me that if we leave and then Labour get back in they'll screw stuff up with regard to trade as they then have the ability to enforce protectionist legislation. There is still a weak link to unions which needs to be addressed.

We can put up with a couple of years of having to buy Hondas Toyotas and McLarens, instead of Renaults until they come to their senses.

ZZ I award you one half point against leaving Europe. I will however trust the voting public to be sensible enough not to vote Labour in until they've got shot of the current crowd of hopeless individuals.

 

Well, the thing with European elections is that they're regional and no one is standing in your area for tomorrow. At least not under their own name. Instead you just vote for the party you want to support and they'll choose who to send to the European Parliament for you.

 

"Just think, why do all leaders of the main parties, bar UKIP and the BNP believe in Europe, considering they know far more about it than we do."

Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of Europe, the reason the politicians love the EU so much is because it is a gargantuan gravy train for them to jump into after they are booted out of office for incompetence. Politicians supporting politicians. Who would have thought?

 

Absolutely. Whether you agree with UKIP or god forbid the BNP's policies or not, one thing you can agree with is they are people with a firm conviction that wish to change the country for what the see as better. They are not career politicians, in it for them selves. In Fact UKIPs original manifesto if I remember correctly was to win, get out of Europe and then disband forcing another general election.

 

Really? Do you have any examples? I suppose the Kinnocks possibly fit that bill but who else? Most of our failed politicians jump on our own British gravy train - aka the House of Lords. Gawd bless it. Gotta stop those forrun gravy trains.

 

I'm encouraged that we've had 6 pages of political debate here and we haven't resorted to name calling or finger pointing.
:sign15:

 

Kinnocks. Mandelson. Clegg was there before and will certainly end up back there. Ashton. Patten. Blair was sniffing around the EU presidency. Leon Birttain. There are plenty of others less notable.

Just because the HOL is an easier route, it doesn't mean that it is in their interests to close off the EU career path.

 

Odd though that so few Business organisations are pro leaving.

The problem is, whilst we can negotiate new terms for membership, almost inevitable given the widespread scepticism in Europe itself over some matters, we can't negotiate the terms of leaving before a referendum. They would be a gamble and it would not be in Europe's interest to make them favourable unless they want to see other countries follow suit and the union collapse.

We won't be leaving and it's pointless fantasy, no more likely than abolishing Westminster.

 

No thanks to you kn*b.

 

Oh but you can, Germany does for a start with a banding system, e.g. an employed tradesman (it's much harder to be 'self employed' there) has a rate set by the government and such things as experience or added qualifications enable workers to move up a band. Naturally employers can pay more to attract the best but they cannot simply employ unqualified or cut price labour for these positions. Pre Thatcher we used to have similar systems, namely 'union rates' set by various authorities, this worked for decades however in some industries unions got too powerful and started holding the government to ransom, ultimately their militancy buggered it up for everybody.

 

That's mainly the UK commissioner role. It's one job appointed to every 5 years. I'm not sure politicians en masse would base their whole belief on remaining in the EU around the fact that they have a small chance of getting 1 available job at some point in the future. I think the fact you've had to bring Clegg and Blair on to the list based on press speculation says it all.

 

Yes - I think the EU monstrosity has grown so much that to leave would be a risk that is not worth taking. However, it is noticable that even businesses don't put forward the positive reasons for being a member. It is all just fear based of the bad things that would happen if we leave.

I'd love a politician to come forward and state an eloquent case for all the benefits the EU creates. Someone put forward human rights law today, but that is hardly a benefit as far as I can see with some of the absurd rulings that seem to be handed down by the EU court onto our own judges.

Come on Cleggy - make the case and convince everyone

 

Says it all? You asked for some examples and I've given the high profile ones. The fact that you are arguing that a bunch of career politicians won't want to keep a potential career avenue open after parliament makes zero sense to me. I'm sure some of them believe strongly in the EU like Clegg, but for many the art of a career politician is getting favour from people who will help you down the road and building a contact list. That's why they are help in such contempt in this country. Do I really have to dig up a bunch of obscure former MPs who have had a small role or benefited from an EU polticial link to make the point?

 

And Clegg was an MEP for 5 years so I'm not sure why you are claiming this is "press speculation".

 

Do you really believe that all party's want to stay in Europe just to get a job afterwards?

I get the negotiation of our own trade links, but maintain it is far cheaper to trade, import and negotiate when you are part of a larger trade area.

It has been mentioned that we have UK politicians who represent us, but they are the ones who want to stay in Europe. You have to trust the decisions of those in charge. The three main parties pretty much never agree, but they all do for this issue. You say we can opt in and out, but we won't have a say in the laws that govern all the countries which surround us.

The ones that disagree are xenophobic parties exploiting the recent financial crash and our feelings of fear over Europe. It's no coiincidence that everyone goes far right and more nationalist when the economy is struggling.

And if you don't agree, you do not think UKIP are institutionally racist, then vote conservative. They have promised a referendum (when the economy has picked up) and will give you the chance to speak, without ruining our relationship with the countries around us.

And when the economies pick up (look at countries like Estonia) we will end up propping each other up, sharing highly skilled labour and specialised industry, at a lower cost than elsewhere.

 

The career path you're talking about is hardly a gravy train if only one person at a time can get on it! You specifically mentioned people leaving politics in this country when they were 'booted out of office'. I know for a fact that there a plenty of MPs who were MEPs in a former role. But very few if any go back to the EU once they're elected here as frankly for 99.9% of the the HoL is the favoured and most prosperous route. And that was the point of your post - that they go Europe when they're done here.

Yeah, 'was' being the operative word. Any prospect of him going back is sheer speculation.

 

You simply don't distinguish, the market will do that for you. Why even let people set up businesses if they can't run them properly?

 

How can you suggest artificially creating wage structures through regulation, and then saying that the "market will do that for you" - the two concepts are polar opposites. You either believe in "the market" or you don't.

How can you make judgements on whether business owners are fit to run businesses when you want to regulate their biggest expense.

You seem to want your cake and eat it. Totally impractical and stupid (IMHO).:naughty:

 

I would love that too, but it isn’t going to happen for many reasons.

The main reason to stay in the Euro is that you have lots of hardworking skilled workers who can join without work permits. This is akin to saying, those of you who have not taken the opportunities afforded to you, or are not as good at your job as your European counterparts, you will find it far more difficult to make it.

Competition is what fuels economies, but competition is not what those want in jobs which can be done by anyone without an education, as they have no competitive advantage. In fact, they generally want to work less hours, be paid more, for a job which isn’t always better. The consumer and the whole benefit, but those who do not have a good reputation will suffer.

EU laws are annoying, but in the most part unrestrictive. The main point of them is to put into action things which cost money or will not come into action for a couple of years, which 4/5 year governments would not do because of their unpopularity. Things like the environment, like global warming and fishing quotas.

I agree that some of the human rights laws are annoying, but a lot of them make sense: Abu Q argued that the US and Yemen support the death penalty and have vast examples of torture among their inmates, and we had to prove without any doubt that he would not be subject to that. But yes there are lots of annoying cases of people not being able to be deported because they claim it is unfair on their children etc. And it is very annoying that the EU want a piece of our financial sector whilst subsidising the failing French agricultural sector. But we do not complain when it means our wine and cheese costs less than it would otherwise.

The point isn’t to drop out. It’s to very much be involved, pushing for change from within, not outside. Losing our veto loses us all powers of negotiation of what happens in the massive block that surrounds us. And like it or not, in or out, Europe will still massively affect us. It is all about negotiation, fight and sacrifice, not running away and trying to do the same and better by ourselves.

 

Rubbish, it just means that labour becomes a fixed cost rather than a tennis ball .... If you're trying to tell me wage regulation is inoperable don't bother, it works rather well elsewhere.

 

"The ones that disagree are xenophobic parties exploiting the recent financial crash and our feelings of fear over Europe. It's no coiincidence that everyone goes far right and more nationalist when the economy is struggling."

I didn't even get on to discussing the merits of the EU - you have no idea where I stand on the subject.

But it's telling that in response to you suspecting that I am anti EU, your only arguments are that:

1) Being anti EU is racist
2) If we leave we will suffer penalties.

Your only vaguely positive point in favour of the EU is that all countries will boom and we will have a large labour pool (which you can have anyway).

I'm on the fence regarding Europe, but your posts have unfortunately been a standard illustration of the current weak arguments in favour of staying in. Woolly and alarmist. Make your case. List 5 key benefits of being in the EU. Persuade me.

 

Election day today isn't it? I didn't register to vote this time, so I don't know why I am even reading this thread.

 

What really, really makes me laugh is the idiots that think we can negotiate our way out keeping just the good bits when infact we really have nothing to negotiate with. It's far more likely we have to pull out completely and then have to negotiate trade deals from scratch and that's not so easy when half the union hate us already! (mostly due to our banks)

 

Same as ... not that I'm worried, my future probably lies in Germany.

 

Trade deals were successfully managed before. We are a net importer of goods from Europe. It is in their interest to retain a tax free exchange with us.

If Europe come up with a good one, there's nothing stopping us making an identical one. If they come up with a bad one there's nothing stopping us making it better or ignoring it completely. We will be free to chose rather than being lumbered or having our veto ignored. Every time we have voted against something it has been passed anyway. The fact we are in and having a say does not help.

If believing that makes me an idiot, then so be it. I'm an idiot.

I still have not been provided by one solid advantage of staying in that can not be replicated by us when we opt out.
I'm alarmed that someone who believes passionately about the subject has not registered to vote if they are able. Apathy is what got the BNP an MEP.

 

I accept that from time to time we have things imposed on us that our leaders don't think are in the interests of the UK but is it really true that "every time we have voted against something it has been passed anyway"? Then you could consider that even where we voted against something was it amended first to meet us halfway? I don't put it beyond our ministers who attend Council to negotiate a mutually agreeable position and then, knowing the issue might be emotive at home and will be passed regardless of how we vote, with a nod and wink tell everyone in the room we're still voting no. In fact I'm certain I've read of this exact thing happening in a book at some point although I'd be hard pressed to remember which book.

 

Not all of those points were to you, sorry I am on my phone and cannot be bothered to individually quote.

I will give you far more than 5 points, if only to come to understand my points about the matter (with a little help from my girlfriend, who works in the financial sector).

I guess I should split up my answer into the different parts of government. Economic, social and geopolical.

Economically, the EU overall is at what many believe to be the bottom. Many countries are growing, creating more product and growing.

We are in an integrated world. 30 countries can take part in the manufacture of one tshirt, its mad to me to think that general increases in perfectionism can improve welfare.

Let’s look at the cost of an exit.

Trade- I know Farage disputes it, but leaving a Free Trade Union will inevitable lead to a decrease in trade with Europe. We will be able to choose certain products on a lower scale to import, but all economic principles suggest that this will be more expensive than it is now, due to the larger scales currently operating. Free trade increases the size of the pie in this regard, giving us greater choice, lower prices, increasing competitiveness and the ability to exploit a comparative advantage.

Large multi-national organisations currently settle here for a variety of reasons, but the main one is cost. This advantage would be depleted by having to pay greater levies to trade to other countries/ organise individual trade contracts and agreements. It will be cheaper and far less hassle and paperwork to move to a top European city instead, and thus leaving the EU will make it far more likely that this will happen, losing jobs and taxes. The ones that will really suffer however are smaller businesses. They will struggle to overcome rising import costs and a diminishing export market. Trade will of course still continue, but there will be greater barriers. Financial institutions will be fine whilst manufacturing ones will struggle more, especially as there will be a lower access to financing, borrowing, and liquidity in the business. Competitiveness will fall, prices will rise, exports become less attractive, whilst the need for imports remain. Economic theory by all means suggests that this will lead to an increase in our account deficit.

But what about investments? FDI and hot money inflows will almost certainly decrease. At the moment we can compete with equally competitive countries, but without the harmonising rules, EU countries would pick say Germany because of less uncertainty. Growth would become less certain, there would be an increase on risk premium on our fixed income, as our growth income projections would certainly deteriorate. And remember, a lot of economics is psychological. A lack of confidence or an increase in doubt can turn us from a safe haven to an unknown entity.

A lot of our current growth is to do with increasing investments into the housing sector. With an already overinflated market, investors may be more likely to invest in economies that are growing rather than stagnating, to get a greater return. All means less inflow of capital.

 

Immigration and social factors

Immigration brings ideas, innovations, lower costs, fills jobs that we do not want, reduces the debt burden of the economy, and actually, improves public services such as the NHS which are reliant on foreign nationals. Many of the arguments commonly given against the free movement of working people are incorrect, inaccurate and xenophobic. And the increase of competition means that kids will have to achieve higher marks at school, pushing schools to improve their performance. Our country is run by the financial sector, and this is so competitive because we have the best labour available. Would all of these workers head over to Britain if they had to be heavily scrutinised, constantly applying for Visas and put under immigration tests, or would they just move to the ever growing other financial sectors growing ever competitively in Europe.

Culture

I understand those who are old enough to know a Britain before the benefits culture kicked in, but in such a highly diverse city, this is always going to change, quotas or no quotas. All quotas will do is give the impression that we are separatist and uninviting, which is a very bad message to give the world.

Geopolitical:

I have pretty much expressed this above. Like it or not we are massively influenced by those around us. This gives us a say. If we pull out we will lose this right.

Countries are better together. They can tackle cross country issues more successfully. What if the EU drafts an environmental bill that affects us particularly negatively. We wouldn’t have any real reason to try and influence the bill, we would just stay away.

Do you think that pulling out of the EU at their most vulnerable will improve our relationships with Europe or harm them? The harming of international relationships is always a bad thing, no matter which way you spin it.

I am not claiming anyone who is anti Europe is racist. I am claiming the only two significant parties which support it are. And who has the most to gain from separation, nationalism etc. The fringe parties who can use it to gain power, to move us away from the middle. The far right man who can sip a pint like the rest of us, playing on the innate fears of the poor and rich that our jobs, livelihoods and culture are threatened. They are not.