Duxbury Out

The abuse from some fans on here is way over the top, but criticism is okay, as long as it's within the parameters of what you expect from the owners.

In the past, especially the back-to-back promotions from GT, the club were not ready for promotion. The ownership could not fund it and the fans understood this. The Pozzo's are victims of their own success and it's probably a compliment to them, that fans get so frustrated. We got used to Gino walking on water. Being smarter than the rest, but now we see errors that even the most layman of fan can see it and predict.

But, to get a club operating in the Premier League for 6 of the past 7 seasons in a remarkable achievement. We have to remind ourselves, that these are actually the good times. If Gino left, how confident would we all be that Watford would be better than they are now? I think we'd soon go back to Championship obscurity. Before the Pozzo's came, we were a club fighting to stay in the Championship, and a successful season was to stay up. Now we're fighting to stay in the Premier League and a successful season is to stay up. It's a huge improvement. If we do go down, we'll be one of the favourites to get promoted again. So the club is much better because of their involvement.

Now, this isn't to say they should be doing better. I think they should, given their knowledge and years of experience of successfully running football clubs. To leave the defence alone, when it had a track record of leaking goals in the Premier League, was a bonkers decision, and the are paying the price for it.

I do have a lot of sympathy though. I know how hard it must be to run a club in the Premier League when you're not a billionaire. It's no coincidence Watford, Norwich and Burnley are in the bottom four. They are the three smallest clubs in terms of financial backing. The Premier League is a money league. When it comes to signing players, the only hope we've got is to vacuum up a lot of dross and hope a few turn out to be gems. Watford operate between the cracks. Dennis had a terrible reputation, but with a lot of potential. Watford were happy to take the risk as the reward could be high.

This is our world under the Pozzo's. We have to embrace it more, and be a lot more understanding I think. It's ok to be critical, but the level of entitlement from some is way off base.

 

I think Simpson received a fair amount of flack.
When we went down under GT he spoke to the fans and we had been used to his brilliant communication skills.
He made it clear that there was little point buying above our structure as the players would not necessarily be better than those we had and we'd never attract the top ones.
The difference I believe is how the hierarchy speak with us.
My main gripe with Gino is he is mute.
Leaving it all to SD is not sufficient, especially given the reaction to the fans' forum.
However the past is another country as we all know.

 

The one thing that I think every fan in here is United about is the poor communication from the current owner. I don’t think we can expect them to come out and tell us that “this window we are looking for 2 x CBs, 1 x GK etc” but just being more approachable and generally giving the impression they give a damn about the fans would be appreciated.
They don’t help themselves in the popularity stakes and you get the impression they don’t feel that matters. It’s very much “us and them” as Pink Floyd once said.

 

This is a valid comment. After nearly 10 years of ownership I still don’t know what the Pozzo intention is. To flip a player for profit or to build a club?

 

You're not wrong. But I remember demonstrations against Jim Bonser around 45 years ago, so general antipathy towards owners is not new.

 

Just so!
We're not asking for a weekly bulletin but once a season isn't too much to ask!

 

Yes. I used to chant "Bonser out" around the house as my brothers had taught me!

 

You just get a sense that they don’t just keep their aims from the fans - they keep it from everyone, coaching staff included. Each Head Coach brought in with the aim of short-termism and then on to the next - I bet they don’t inform any coach of plans of long term goals.

Just this week I’ve heard 5 or 6 coaches say they want to sign players in specific positions publicly…coaches of clubs higher up the table than us and not just the top clubs: Wolves, Everton, Brentford, Brighton, Leicester etc. Yet it’s quite obvious Ranieri is told not to speak about such things publicly - which in turn is just another form of the owners being cloak and dagger with fans - gagging the one person who does regularly speak in public.

Nope, I’m sorry HB1 and anyone else who thinks we are too harsh on the ownership. I see where you’re coming from but this owner and his sidekicks won’t be getting more understanding from me until they show the fans far more respect than they do. It’s my opinion that they treat the fans with disdain and couldn’t care less. And now their attitude is spreading to other clubs and countries in the footballing world.

I’ve long been told that many players, clubs and agents don’t like dealing with us and feel we are a club that isn’t to be trusted because of the owner. I always thought it was hyperbole for the most part but now I think it’s likely bang on the truth.

 

Yes. Every 45 years though

 

My main point is, they are probably the best owners we're likely to ever get. That might not be true, but that's my perception of what it would be like without them. We've had so many poor owners without a clue in the past. Now we've got relatively poor owners, but they do have a clue how to do things. Even though they make a lot of mistakes, they are still pretty smart at doing what they do.

There is a lot I don't like about how they do things. Gino only giving one interview in 10 years is probably showing a lack of respect to the fans. The secrecy code does my nut in, however, that all disappears if Watford start winning games. No one cares about how they do things when Watford win. It only becomes an issue when we have problems on the pitch.

We, as fans, have to ask ourselves what do we want. Do we want an owner who has the ability to get us to the Premier League. If we do go down, I'd absolutely back them to get us promoted again. To be a powerhouse in the Championship is still a level above what we would expect in "normal" non-Pozzo times........or do we want an owner, which would probably be the alternative, who can only afford to keep us in the Championship and will struggle. I think we have to be honest......a billionaire owner is off the table.

Even with all the baggage, we are still a much better club with them in charge. I think the evidence is clear to support that.

Are they perfect?.....no.......will they make us an established Premier League club? Probably not. But until there is a new owner, with big ambitions and deep pockets waiting in the wings, we have to accept what we have and even appreciate it. Without them we are highly likely to go backwards as a club.

But I do understand where you're coming from in all this. I too get extremely frustrated with them....but without them, I think our future could be bland and uninspired.

 

[QUOTE="....... It’s very much “us and them” as Pink Floyd once said.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to transfer targets, Watford fans don't need no education.

 

I think they are completely in the right to not talk about transfer targets, much as it would be interesting for us to hear. What happens if the owners say they want to bring in 2 new CDs and then fail to sign their preferred targets ? We alienate our existing players who we may be stuck with and alert other clubs to our relative desperation!
However just more general discussion about direction, strategy, meeting with fan groups etc would be better. We will never get the EJ/GT level of sharing again but even they didn’t talk about transfer targets but there was a “we’re all one family” type of banter and discussion. Remember when GT asked the fans why we weren’t chanting “Graham” rather than “Taylor” - “I thought we were on first name terms ?”

 

Then fans will be able to rightly ask - where are the 2 CB’s rather than vaguely wondering if they are even aware of the issues the team has. And if they don’t get them, at least we then know it’s being looked at and is on the to-do-list.

If it alienates the current players, then that shows they have signed weak characters who aren’t prepared to knuckle down, fight for their places and say ‘I’ll show them I deserve to play’. Why should they pander to under-performing players for fear of upsetting them? These players will know the business they are in and what the situation is at most clubs - if I don’t perform, I won’t play and I’ll be replaced.

As for ‘alerting clubs to our desperation’ - football doesn’t work like that. Unless you are a super rich club who can expect a minor bump in asking price, clubs don’t just push prices up based on the buying clubs need. They will want rid of players as much as anyone etc. A club won’t suddenly ask for an extra £1m-£2m just because Ranieri publicly said we are looking for defenders.

 

We had a run of five seasons in the PL, was that pure fluke or skill? As TUT likes to constantly remind us, there are plenty of bigger teams in the lower leagues, but all that proves to me is that it isn’t all about money at all, it’s about how well run your club is and there is plenty of room to run your club well and overcome financial disparity.

Look at the NFL, you’ve got salary caps and the player franchise model. Then the worst team gets to pick the best player from the draft the following season. So you have a landscape that favours the worst teams, yet you still get awful NFL teams that are rubbish year in year out, who have the same amount of money to spend and more opportunity to acquire players than other NFL teams who regularly win superbowls.

Why is this? Because every team is run differently and you get teams that are run poorly and teams that are run well. Give the poor teams the opportunity to acquire better players and they still end up rubbish.

I personally don’t think you can fluke five seasons in the PL, so the proof is there that you can overcome financial disparity and maintain PL status if you’re well run club.

The frustration for many of us is that after five years in the PL it was all squandered due to a series of completely avoidable decisions. I don’t subscribe to the ‘gravity will eventually catch up with us’ theory at all, because 5 seasons in the PL is proof that isn’t true.

So we can be both grateful for what we’ve achieved, accept we may still be better off than we were before, but also be frustrated that we’ve squandered a fantastic position due to nothing more than obviously poor decision making.

 

Gravity does catch up with us all in the end. That’s why the likes of Cardiff, Swansea, Huddersfield, WBA, Stoke, us, Muff etc etc all drop after a while. The fact that we survived 5 years just meant that the club was run incredibly well over that period but that woukd always have to come to an end at some point. They just don’t help themselves by acting as though we fans don’t exist/matter.

 

Ok we disagree. I think they’d be mad to tell the world signing 2 CBs is our priority whereas you think it’s a good idea. That’s fine.

 

Like it or not the Pozzo’s have been the most successful owners in Watford’s history. Yes they have made mistakes in the transfer market, but that is 100% guaranteed to happen when in most cases you are paying peanuts for players. A par performance for Watford is about 17th in the championship. Tin pot club that can barely fill a small stadium when we’re doing well. If we avoid relegation they should be shoulder carried around the stadium, with Pozzo flags waving

 

But equally there are much bigger clubs than Palace, Brighton, Southampton, Burnley etc outside of the PL.

If you look at the owners of all the championship clubs Gino would also be the poorest amongst those as well, so why is he able to get Watford out of the championship relatively easily?

You accept we were well run for 5 years, so surely you accept we’ve since been badly run?

 

I’m not “United”. I’m an Orn.

 

Indeed, but we are talking about how hard it is for small clubs to stay in the prem, rather than how easy it is for bigger clubs to win promotion to the prem. Once the larger clubs like Aston Villa, Southampton, Leicester, Wolves. WHU DO get into the prem it is easier for them to stay there than it is for us.

I accept we haven't been run well enough to continue the over-achievement of those first years certainly.

 

Leicester and Southampton are not particularly big clubs historically. Leicester have very wealthy owners, but they don’t bank roll them on the playing staff side, they’re just far better run than we are.

 

Both get home gates >30k so have a fan base 50% larger than us despite both being relatively small in prem terms, and have spent the vast majority of the last 50 years in the top flight. Wealthy owners also gives a degree of "insurance cover".

 

But as I said the other day, those numbers are fairly incidental in revenue terms (less then 10% of our peak revenue) and easily overcome by being run well. If it made that much difference all these big teams you talk about in the lower leagues wouldn’t be languishing there, because they get bigger gates than the other teams around them so they would easily get promoted if it was such a big factor. TV money, facility fees and league placement is what provides the vast majority of revenue for clubs outside the top six, and you can spend it well and you can spend it badly.

 

Since those 5 years we've had a relegation from the PL, a relatively comfortable promotion season, and currently sit outside of the relegation zone in the PL.

Despite the numerous mistakes, most clubs in the country would love to be so 'badly run'.

 

There are always one or two large clubs languishing in the lower leagues (eg Sunderland, Ipswich and Sheff Wed today) and one or two smaller clubs like us in the top league. The larger clubs fight their way back up (and get replaced by others) and the smaller clubs enjoy their time in the limelight and drop back down. Following your logic, can we expect to see Rochdale and Accrington in the prem 10 years from now as gate revenue is so unimportant ? The fact is we are seen as less attractive a destination than the larger clubs, for justifiable reasons.

 

I think they truly believe the latter requires the former to work...trouble is it's stopped working now and they seem to have no other discernible strategy.

 

Don't Leicester have a net spend of about £200m+ since they got promoted?

 

Potentially, off the top of my head we saw Bournemouth and Wigan get to the PL with 10k capacity grounds.

You seem to be arguing against yourself though? Ground capacity is the be all and end all, until it isn’t? There are whole lot more bigger clubs than us languishing in the lower leagues than us that you have conveniently failed to list, it’s hardly one or two is it?

 

And where are Muff and Wigan now ? That's exactly my point. Size gives you a massive advantage. Small clubs will occasionally make it to the top but won't survive forever. Who do you think are most likley to be in the prem in 10 years time ? WHU or Brentford ? Leicester or Burnley ? Nottm Forest or Peterboro ? Presume following your argument, all would be a 50/50 call as size doesn't really matter anymore ?
ps a good debate by the way

 

Sorry, but I must point out that Ipswich are in no way a “large club” alongside Sunderland and Sheffield Wednesday. They are a ‘town’ team from the same Southern League stock as us, but didn’t arrive in the Football League until 18 years after we did. Their terrific success in the 60s, 70s and early 80s was down to being well run and having an excellent manager.

 

I’m not saying size doesn’t matter, but once you’re in the PL it becomes far less relevant probably by a power of 10, because the TV money dwarfs gate recipients by about 10:1. It’s then down to how well you manage it more than another club having an extra £10m a year in gate receipts.

As a championship club we have neither wealthy owners or the highest gate receipts, but have still been promoted twice and reached the play off final once out of four attempts under Gino. So being well run trumps size of club in that instance.

 

To an extent but clubs like WHU and Everton still have a huge advantage based on many factors inc gate income, wealth of owner, status, extra income from higher position in prior year. If WHU and ourselves both wanted to sign the same player, chances he would opt for the better future prospects of WHU and greater package they could offer. You can't argue that all clubs start the season with the same chances and it's just down to how well they are managed where they finish.

 

I totally understand why Gino doesnt want to communicate. Abramovic is similar. The problem is that the people who Gino delegates fan communication to (Scott and Giaretta) seem to believe their job is to bull$h1t the fans into backing whatever half arsed decision they've just made and until recently the player they elevated to a position above the manager was a narcissistic violent offender who constantly shot his mouth off to the detriment of the club. The communication from the club to the fans has been a totally fooking disaster for years.

 

I'm as pissed off with Gino as the next guy, but comparing him to Abramovich is uncalled for.