I accept that. Playing the ball high to him is pointless, and I don't blame him for losing the ball in those situations. But when he's given the ball to his feet, without being pressured and he still messes it up. He cannot seem to play a simple pass, just to keep the move going. This is the frustration. If he was only average at this, then he'd be twice the player he is. I don't think it's too much to ask he club's record signing and highest wage earner to be able to play a simple pass to a colleague. There are a lot of excuses being made for him on here, which is fair enough, but I think people have to be honest with their appraisal. He's good a certain things, like endeavour, chasing lost causes and has a bit of pace. But he just cannot sort his feet out quickly enough. It's like he's being controlled remotely, and there a slightly delay with his brain and feet.
Excellent summary KGT. I would beg to differ on Massina in as much as he received very little help during the first half and to compound that the defence weren't on the same wavelength. I thought he looked much better in the second half. There were at least three occasions in the second half when AD missed an immediate pass to Kiko and momentum was lost. He also seemed to get over excited and over hit a couple of crosses. I have to agree about GD. I put it down to his likeness to Dan Evans the misbehaving tennis player. Success in one minute showed all that he can do and all that he shouldn't,taking the ball well on his chest and almost immediately falling over for no apparent reason. Baffling.
But Deulofeu and Perreyra are roaming players - Gray isn't - he runs the channels to create space for other players. To lump the ball up to him when he's up against a defender who's a foot taller than him or fizz a ball into him when he's surrounded and isolated is not going to yield the results you want. Deulofeu was dropping deep and going wide, Perreyra was out wide, Hughes came inside taking the space away, Capoue & Doucoure sat deep, so when the ball was played up front Gray had 4 defenders around him nd the ony support he had was from Hughes where a gust of wind will knock him off the ball. As a defender all you need to do is nudge him or get a toe poke in and the surrounding midfielders pick up the loose ball. If you going to be critical of Gray, then share the blame...how many times did the attack break down or a pass get intercepted from Hughes, Deulofeu and Perreyra trying to be the clever with little round the corner passes which weren't on or flicks which set off counter attacks? I lost count of how many times I shouted in frustration - it was an equal number of times I was frustrated at Gray.
I think it's fair to say we are all clear on Gray's strengths and weaknesses. Passing and close control are not his strengths. Covering ground, consistently getting himself on the end of chances, and converting enough to keep his scoring stats very reasonable, are. He's most effective away from home where he has space to run into, especially if he has TD to play off. He's least effective at home, especially against a team who park the bus, especially when he doesn't have a target man alongside him.
I get the feeling Foster may have lost a little confidence...on a couple of occasions he did not act decisively on through balls when the CBs needed him to come to collect & he has been beaten more easily on 1-on-1's than previously. And his kicking has got worse. Still make excellent saves, but the rest of his game has tailed off. In the 1st half, Masina was at times left with 3 players to contend with due to Pereyra's lack of tracking back & also Doucoure not always getting back quick enough, so no wonder he looked "lost". I thought he looked OK second half as one of a pretty makeshift back 3, although he did sell himself a couple of times when we were chasing the game. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned how brave (potentially foolhardy) Gracia's 2nd half formation was: a back 3 of Janmaat-Kabasele-Masina did extremely well to restrict Soton most of the time. It could have been Muff all over again. Whilst Doucoure was not at the level we've come to expect, I think it's unfair to blame him for not making a lot of those "obvious" wide passes...Soton had set up to fill that potential space with 2, sometimes 3, players waiting to pick off a slightly misplaced pass & hit us on the counter; a real threat when you have the speed of Redmond & Long. I felt we stayed in our "narrow box" midfield formation too much so had no-one to split the players in Soton's trap so severely reduced the number of options Doucs & Capoue had when in possession, hence how slow some of our play was. Deulofeu looked like he would rip them apart on his own during a couple of 10 minute periods, but then was overloaded at other times & tried to do too much on his own. Pereyra: not sure he was fully fit, but seemed to get stronger as the game progressed, so maybe it was rustiness. Still hung Masina out to dry, which goes to show just what a fantastic season Holebas is having as he is able to compensate for that more than most would be. Gray should 100% have scored the chance soon after their goal; if he had, it's a completely different game as conceding an equaliser so soon may have had a more negative impact upon Soton's confidence than if the score was still 0-0...but at least he did score eventually & I think we just have to accept he is the calibre of player we can actually attract & afford...unpalatable as that may be. Success does tend to disrupt defences when he comes on, even if it's not obvious how or why, but things do seem to happen around him. Mind you, I'd put less faith in his finishing than in Gray's. All in all, I think we deserved a draw, but many people need to remind themselves who we are, the squad we have, and what league we are playing in. Even under GT when the playing field was a lot more level, only once did we surpass our current position.
You can make all the excuses in the world, but the simple fact is, he cannot do the basic football stuff well often enough. If he improve his touch, control and ability to play a simple pass, then great, he'd be a huge asset. But his failings are too severe, IMO, to ensure he's a regular first team starter and we do need better from a player in this position, especially if you consider what we're paying for his services. I'm not looking for a world beater, and I know our limitations as a club, but I know we can do better. Andre Gray is not the pinnacle of our pulling ability.
Who really gives a toss how poor or not he is in the buildup when the ball still somehow miraculously finds its way in to the back of the net?! Clearly it's not that much of a hindrance. He's a finisher, he's an Inzaghi-type.
I agree that obviously it shouldn't be impossible to find an upgrade on Gray (and Deeney), but it's also not a simple task either.
I think that this thread has gone off track. Gray wasn't great last night, but wasn't our worst player. He's clearly got limitations, but he's also got a lot of value. 8 goals a season from however many minutes, can't be sniffed at. I'm one of the biggest critics of the weaker side of his game, but it's a matter of deployment. I don't hold with the idea that he needs "service." Any player can live off "service." That generally means, being in the box and poking or heading home goals from well placed crosses. Strikers need to offer more than that. It's also true that Gray contributes to overall problems in the game, by breaking up our attacks and ceding possession to allow teams to break against use. However, I think he's shown that used correctly, predominantly as a sub, he has a value which will win us points. As long as we never have to rely on him starting a large number of games for us, he's always going to do a job. Anyone pining for Success instead, needs to have a ******* long hard look at themselves.
Who's making excuses? I'm calling it how I see it - you're the one on a rant and you do want worldbeaters - he scored last night and salvaged a point - the fact you won't call out your poster boys for their poor service is evidence of a personal vendetta.
I guess, if all our moves broke down, giving the opposition a cheap ball so they can retain possession and create their own attacks is a good thing? What if giving the ball away cheaply led them to score 3 or 4 goals, but Gray managed to score one in the end. Is that still ok?
Next season if we cash in on Doucoure we are back to inching to 40 points and safety in my opinion. He’s going to be a big loss and we will be back among the Burnley and Bournemouth’s in terms of “should stay up”. Anyone expecting top 10 finishes year on year are somewhat deluded.
You're now going OTT and being a bit silly. So, I'll leave you with that. I like Gray, but he's not good enough for what we need.
Considering how well we've still done while he's been on the pitch, it's clearly not the big problem you're making it out to be. Our goals conceded lately, and dropped points, have typically been due to defensive howlers - nothing to do with our forward play. Doucoure is also as guilty as Gray, if not even more so, at giving the ball away to the opposition in a manner which gifts them attacking opportunities.
How do u explain his 3 assists this month including assisting the winning goal in an FA cup semi final? What about his speed of thought for his superb winner last night?
Except his key goals this season have often been exactly what we've needed. I'm not saying he should be our main man up front, but I'd still sooner find an upgrade for Deeney to be a first choice, all-around number 9 type, and keep Gray as a squad option than vice-versa. Deeney's "antics" this season have cost us more points than Gray losing the ball in build-up play.
Yes, that's great. He does do good things. I've said that several times, but he is far too clumsy and unreliable. It's a balancing act. He is useful, there's no doubt about it, but he's not a first team regular IMO. We need someone who is better and basic football things such as first touch and being able to contribute to build up play. Not sure why everyone is so upset about that opinion.
Because we won't be buying someone who has a great first touch, makes a major contribution to build up play and also scores at the rate he does. The front 3 we have are all different, all have different strengths and weaknesses, but between them will score enough goals to keep us in the prem.
The problem is it creates unnecessary issues when moves break down due to something so basic as controlling a ball and it bounces away from him, or a simple pass is overhit, under-hit or misdirected without any pressure on him. This is the biggest problem with Gray. Doucoure had a bad game last night. But that's all it was. A bad game. If he played like that every week then that would be a major issue. Gray had enough simple chances to have taken the match ball home last night, so that stupid defensive mistake would not have mattered too much. Look everyone makes mistakes, and that's fine. Foster made a right howlet against Arsenal, Cathcart last night....but these are uncharacteristic. Gray's lack of control and hitting the ball straight at the keeper, is characteristic of him. Occasionally he does things well, but that's not characteristic of him in general.
If Gray was as clinical as you'd like he'd be scoring every game and worth £100m. He is limited, all our strikers are in different ways. You quoted the 3 Soton strikers earlier in this thread. I bet Soton fans would much rather have our 3 strikers than theirs.
Ok, so we don't all agree about Gray but who do you think we should try to get? Is there anybody in Spain that's worth a gamble apart from Cucho? Both genuine questions and if you don't know, no problem because I don't either!!
No I'm not, because I'm pleased with him being a squad option whereas you continue to harshly criticise him for things which aren't so important and seem to resent him being played at all.
BEFORE last night, the answer was Troy with 264 mins per goal in the league, before Gray clocked in with a goal every 228 mins, and Geri led the standings with a miraculous 196 minutes played for each of the goals he has scored. Obv, last night both Geri and DreDre the Wolverhampton Icardi played another 90, and AG scored whilst GD did not, so that will factor into those statistics. Troy did nothing.
Can you even point to one single occasion where that has happened?! As I mentioned before, Doucoure is more guilty of doing what you mentioned than Gray.
I quoted a lot of clubs, not just Southampton, and I was only mentioning Gray, not a wholesale swap. I wouldn't swap Deeney or Deulofeu with anyone right now. If you would rather have Gray, over Ings, Long or Austin, that's fine. I think they are all much better finishers than Gray, but that's just my opinion.
Follow the logic. Giving the ball cheaply to the opposition is not a tactical advantage. You don't need to put your hand in the fire in order to know it will burn you. In other words, you don't need to experience giving the ball away cheaply leading to goals against in order to prove that it could happen. Not only could happen, but is likely to happen. Ok, we were not made to pay of it last night, but I lost count how many times our defenders were left 1 v 1 and had to be perfect in their tackles. It was last ditch stuff all because we were not holding on to the ball upfield often enough. Last night, had Gray taken his chances we'd have won that game by at least a couple of goals. They weren't difficult chances either. Instead Gray is the hero because he scored in the 90th minute to give us a point. Where in reality it should have been a goal that made the game safe.
