Stadium Expansion

Well there's certainly enough space.. and it would give the hospital a longer access area along Vicarage Road. But would the upwardly mobile residents of this new riverside development approve of that?

I reckon if we were to build new it would be on a greenfield site somewhere with better infrastructure. But i hope it never comes to that.

 

Be good if so - but seems daft them building the current extension to the existing exterior of the GT stand (as per Onceamascot's post above) if they're planning on knocking it down eventually. I suppose that any development regarding the land in that article could takes years to come about, although it does say "could start as soon as 2020".

 

Foundations going in.....

 

Yeah and they have been discussing this site for seemingly decades.. so i wont be holding my breath. It does seem the riverside development is going ahead though. There we see the difference in the speed it takes to get things going when it's private investors compared with public money.. and there's profit to be made.


As for the recent developments behind the GT i think it's a relatively small outlay for this compared with other recent developments we have seen. When you think about all that's been built on the other side and how that will need changing or completely knocking down if the next planned expansion takes place.
Maybe it might also be possible to keep some of these exterior features.. incorporated in new builds.
If it ever comes to adding capacity to the GT side it will interesting see if it's possible to extend the existing stand or whether it will necessitate knocking down and starting again.

 

And thus we came to the end of the Bassini era.



R.I.P.

 

Can someone add a red hard hat floating on top of the concrete please!

 

Regarding increasing the capacity, there's been a lot of chat throughout this thread where this would take place - with the general consensus being an expansion of the SEJ. When going through the NBC Behind the badge programme the other day for the training ground thread, there was a brief interview with Scott Duxbury regarding the stadium which I'd either forgotten about or just originally ignored. Within it, he said the following:

"The most important thing was to have a 4 sided stadium. So we've developed this stadium so that it's now a top premier league stadium. The plan is to increase the capacity. The SEJ - we've got planning permission for a second tier, that will take us up to 30k".

Thought it was interesting that he said "second tier". I share the belief with a few others on here that it appears far easier/more simple to just extend the existing single tier, due to the amount of room behind the stand/it's proximity to Occupation Road and of course the sunlight for the houses - but you would think that the chief exec would get his terminology right. The additional 9k seats also raises question marks being as it would be over double the amount of the stands current tier, so I guess it could be left open to interpretation as to just how accurate his statement is/was.

Whatever he meant by his words, it's good to hear that they have planning permission for whatever it is they've got planned (the programme was aired mid-to-late November, so a fairly recent interview regarding expansion).

 

Not cheap but the only logical way for that big an increase is to lower the rake of the existing stand AND add another tier. The seats and peripherals can all be reused saving some costs. Mind you for 30k they'd need to develop other areas too IMO

 

anything is possible

whether its cost effective (because of complexity and access) is another matter... personally I'd have looked for another site in Watford, but if the clubs happy to pay then who am I to object

 

Whatever is planned for the SEJ we'll presumably be back to a temporarily three-sided stadium again during construction. Therefore, I hope it's a relatively quick build.

The current SEJ construction dragged on much longer than planned though. But it was marketed as a 'kit stand' with the possibility of adding to it included in the original spec. which maybe suggests Phase II might be achieved quite quickly?

 

Build it back over Occupation Road with fans walking underneath to get to Rookery. Would seriously block sunlight to gardens though

 

Must say i was pretty sceptical to the "take us up to 30K" part of that announcement. Did he possibly mean with other planned expansions.. with the GT for instance? Though yes it dident sound like that.

To put it into perspective if we were to increase capacity by 8-9 thousand only on that side it would take the cap of the EJ up to 12-13K. So i did a bit of digging around and found that the Trinity Road stand at Villa Park has a capacity of just under 13K.
Then i measured it out on Google maps and that stand is 62 meters deep and 150 meters long.. that's three times the depth and 40 meters longer than the current EJ (and not far off twice the height)

This is how it would look if we built such a stand at Vic Road.. the yellow lines being the footprint..




So i would guess that any such capacity stand on that side of the stadium would almost definitely require buying up the houses on Liverpool Road.

 

There are no plans for anything like that. I suspect that Scott Duxberry's 30k included a fair bit of poetic licence and a bit more 'blue sky speculation' as to further developments.

As far as I'm aware, the current plan is to roughly double the capacity of the SEJ. Either with a second tier or simply extending the current single tier backwards or maybe both. That should add another 4-5k giving us 26-27k in total which will be quite enough to be going along with.

Gino Pozzo always does sensible and incremental. So, the business model having suggested the increase to the current capacity of 22k with a 'four-sided stadium' would fill up on a regular basis, and that now having been achieved, we see the business model now suggesting doubling the capacity of the SEJ with the potential to fill that up too. And the SEJ has been designed to make that relatively easy to achieve. Should we start getting 27k into the Vic. on a regular basis then the business model might suggest a Plan C. But I suspect that the extent that we could attract more supporters in the NW London catchment area away from the big London clubs might be finite.

Anyway, I really like the way Gino Pozzo goes about his business. It's sensible and pragmatic and there's something wholesome about it. Far better than some kick-arse, testosterone driven, mega-stand which would only ever be half full.

 

I Wonder if the 30k number includes "safe standing" numbers. Is it 1 seat ~ 1.5 safe stand?

 

Hard to see it, such is the jumpiness of the authorities on the subject they are only licencing on a one in one out basis. I can't speak for the future though.

 

There's differing opinions about that (as most things)
In Germany the ratio varies between 1:1.2 and 1.1.8. At Celtic Park it's 1:1 and ive a suspicion that will the case if, when , they introduce it in England.. at least for the early trials. I also think that initially we will see small corner areas or the like, such as at Parkhead. Not entire ends as some people seem to be thinking.


I think Duxberry wouldnt be thinking that far ahead either and just gave the figure of 30K as a rough guide to future development.. while making it sound like he meant in the next development.

 

I'm pretty sure to extend the SEJ stand they would build a new structure that wrapped behind and then over the existing stand to create an upper tier - leaving the current stand relatively untouched except for the roof being removed.

As for taking the numbers to 30,000, that would have to involve re-developing one of the other stands.

Looking at our attendances historically, and also over the past two years, I think anything over 25-26,000 would be completely unnecessary. We've only had 23 crowds above 25k at Vicarage Road (in nearly 100 years), with only 10 games bringing in 28,000 people or more.

 

If the SEJ stand was to be made bigger I would highly doubt a tier on top of the current tier. The rake required for the new tier would be crazy steep. I imagine the whole structure to be up rooted and a much lesser gradient stand be put in further forward and running further back than the current one and then a second tier on top which would be more like the angle of the current one. I know someone in the council planning office and Watford have seeked pre planning on a larger SEJ stand which has been found acceptable. That giant red image that sometimes floats around is the one and there are around 7 more images to with it but they are kept close to their chests.

 

That's very interesting. Is the giant red image you refer to this one?: http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/stadium-expansion.48315/page-66#post-2544647

Very true about the rake. I believe there's a maximum angle they're not allowed to go beyond in terms of steepness for safety reasons, and as you say - in order to see the nearest touchline it would have to be mentally steep due to the angle of the existing structure.

Am I right in thinking that the changing rooms and other facilities are independent from the stand itself, so that once they remove the current rake, they can then just build over the facilities below and we won't be in the position where we need portacabins/temp changing rooms whilst the new stand is constructed?

Great that it sounds like it's just a matter of "when" and not "if" the new stand is started.

 

With those kind of detective skills, you were desperately needed in the Chalobah thread recently!

As you said in your other post, I don't think Scott's remarks were wholly accurate and that if pressed on the subject would have probably explained exactly what he meant - i.e 30k eventually once everything completed and that may/may not involve other areas of the ground.

Looking forward to seeing the plans revealed so we can no doubt discuss/approve/criticise on here!

 

Could well be that the existing groundworks allow for a design change so uprooting might not be the right word. It's almost always the most expensive and most time consuming part of the build so it makes sense to plan ahead.

 

All this talk about a 4 sided stadium is nonsense. We should build another side as a roof, and have people strapped in rollercoaster style.

 

We should build a ground that slowly rotates around the pitch so we get multiple angles of the match. Or rotate the pitch.

 

VR is the future

We can all sit at home and be at the game at the same time

No need for stands

 

I wouldn't mind betting that that will happen one day.

 

No chance but LTC68's VR will ... and whoever does it first will surely clean up

 

Absolutely, United, Barcelona.. etc would get millions of fans world wide for a game

Billion dollar industry just waiting to happen

 

VR@VR has a ring to it..

 

Tuesday 30 August 2022 will be the 100th anniversary of our first match at the Vic - given what has happen to our club in the last 5 years - who knows what the next 5 years will bring......

 

Some interesting stats. (well for me anyway) from the Dortmund Westfalenstadion. The all seated EUEFA-style capacity is 65,829 and when the rail seats are up with some standing for the Bundesliga it's 81,360. An increase of 15,531.

Now, Stevo has indicated that the German mark-up is between 1.2 and 1.8 for some standing versus all seating capacity. So, taking 1.5 as the ballpark figure then Dortmund would have a seating area of 31,062 which, when multiplied by 1.5 for standing, gives them 46,593 and their 15,531 extra capacity.

However, the huge Sudtribune (South Bank) terrace (the biggest in Europe apparently) still only holds 24,454 when standing. I was a bit surprised by that number but it's what Wiki is telling me. So the point of this somewhat convoluted numbers argument is this. Even if Dortmund were getting the full 1.8 mark-up there's no way that 15,531 extra capacity can all be accommodated on the Sudtribune. There must be rail seating or suchlike facilities that can be switched elsewhere in the Westfalenstadion too. So let's extend this argument to our own considerations around increasing capacity, rail-seating and mark-ups.

We go ahead with doubling capacity in the SEJ taking us to 26-27k. Given that it will probably be three seasons before that's finished and a further two seasons thinking about whether we really need any more than that we should be fine until 22-23 at least. However, in the interim, we can be following the increasing trend to introduce rail seating. And, like the increased use of video technology to help the ref., it is inevitable. The Parkhead trend will be followed, there will be associated pressure to allow a safe mark-up to increase stadium capacities and all we have to do is take a relative back-seat, watch it all develop and tag-along as we see fit. I do hope the 'Liverpool Ladies' also take a back-seat here. Allowing increased capacity on a terrace where admissions are much more tightly controlled and with an escape route onto the pitch 'in extremis' is a very different situation to the one that pertained on our darkest day. If they really want to stick their oar in then they'd be better placed joining me at 10.30 on 12 August outside the Vic. and shaming their own who, more than any others, continue to this day to try and get in without a ticket.

Anyway, I'd start with rail seating on the away half of the Vic. Rd. End (current capacity 2,300 and they all stand anyway as do we when we're away) and for the 1881 in the Rookery (who all stand anyway) with a similar area at the other end of the Rookery for symmetries' sake. Or, shift the 1881 to the centre and put the rail seats there. Ultimately, the entire Rookery (current capacity 6,960) and the away end could be standing (and in an 'obese nation' we surely shouldn't be objecting to standing at the football for a couple of hours (which the majority of us used to do anyway)) which would (at a 1.5 mark-up) give us an extra 4.5k+ and a 31k capacity.

And that's ALL we'd have to do. Simple really.

 

The Sudtribune at Dortmund isnt rail seating. Well the back section is but more than half of it is conventional terracing (the likes of which we we never see again in the UK)
They put seats in place for Euro games and internationals but they are removed completely when not in use.
I think you can see that here..



They also have smaller standing sections at the Nord Tribune. Apparently their ratio in the rail seat areas is 1:1.7 but you can see where they make up the numbers.. on the open terracing. Presumably those sections are reduced capacity terracing though cause they are described as "safe standing"




PS I could be wrong but i cant personally see a day when entire ends are turned over to safe standing in the UK. Not in my lifetime anyway.

 

Thanks Stevo. Very enlightening. But my argument re. increasing the Vic's capacity still stands. After doubling the capacity of the SEJ we then move on to tagging along with standing developments. All that will probably take a decade. Maybe that won't take us all the way to 31k though. A moot point as you suggest.

Personally though, I can't see why, if Germans can stand safely on open terracing, why we shouldn't be able to as well. Things may change quite quickly. Especially when the immediacy of Hillsborough becomes increasingly historical.

 

With the concourse as it is in the Vicarage Road end, we won't be able to increase capacity, hence why some of the seats are covered. Only the Rookery is viable for rail seating.

 

Now the shop has gone, could that are be converted to allow extra concourse? Along with the old store room for the shop and any other unused spaces.