The question with Gray is whether it's worth missing 4 absolute sitters - albeit sitters that have been created by his good movement - if you know he's going to score the 5th. I'd prefer to use him as an impact sub, but it's hard to keep such a player motivated. Javi and Gray deserve credit for Gray's continued motivation and fitness, despite a lack of minutes. Hughes is doing a fantastic job tactically, both in defence and attack. He's fast becoming one of my favourite players. I know people say he is a 'winger', but the idea is for him to tuck in when we're attacking positions, due to the overlap of the right wing back. He didn't have his best game yesterday as Southampton crowded the middle of the pitch. However, when Femenia came on last night he overlapped far more successfully than Janmaat. Hughes could therefore drift inside more and we looked more dangerous because of it.
It's your opinion, but I stand by all of the players I listed are better than Gray. Gray is not exactly a cheap option either. We spent £18.5m on his transfer fee and are paying him a reported £70k per week, making him the joint highest wage earner. If we are to improve we need a better strike force than we currently have on the books. Will we spend a fortune in getting it? No, of course not and nor should we, but we do need to improve on what we have. We were looking at striking options in January and were prepared to invest by all accounts. You can get quality at around the £15m mark if you know what you are doing. Think of Richarlison, Pereyra and Deulofeu. We've proved we are able to do this. I think our summer transfer business will be focused on keeping the talent we have and signing a central defender and a better striker. We don't need to do too much, but we do need to improve.
Do we? Is that Gino's plan? I'm not as convinced. I view this 'race for 7th' and an FA Cup Final as a bonus rather than the overall plan. Duxbury himself says that if we don't sell our best players for a profit then we aren't doing it right. That doesn't strike me as a will to crash the big boys party or win a trophy by design. I think this assumption that the will is there to improve over getting cheap talent in and see if it sticks is one that will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The relevant point is, in today's market, that IS a cheap option, at least for a player who has proved he can perform adequately in England. Most cheaper options will be risky punts from overseas who may or may not adapt within 2 seasons even if we get a work permit. It's a real dilemma in the context of the financial status of the club, & not just at striker either. We've had the same debate in the past about what type of CB we can realistically aspire to sign. Until (if) some of the younger players like Peneranda, Success, Wilmott etc come through, where we are now may be the best we'll see. It's hardly "underperforming" after all.
I agree with this. If Gray can accept he's just a bench player for a top half of the table Premier League club, earning good money, but being primarily an impact sub, then fine. I have no problem with keeping him. Although for the money we've invested in him, it could probably be better spent elsewhere. I do think he believes he should be in the first team. There's nothing wrong with thinking that, but I get the feeling he's not happy with the situation and wants to play regularly. I don't think there would be a lot of high calibre clubs in for him if he came on the market, especially at £18.5m with a £70k salary. I think he's punching above his weight in all honesty, and if we did sell him, he'd almost certainly would be going to a club lower down the league and a reduction in salary.
It was all a bit pathetic, not least because it started after about 7 seconds.... I do find it amazing that refs: add on 30 seconds for a substitution, even if it takes a minute or longer (note their guy who got subbed near the end was jogging off until one of his team mates told him to slow down so he started walking) let them take an age over every set piece / throw in (at least Mike Dean let them take them from the wrong place, rather than wasting even more time by making them re-take from 5 yards further back - which they were clearly trying to do all evening) don't notice the number of "injuries" sustained by winning teams vs the number sustained by teams chasing the game There is no common sense applied to time wasting - official time-keepers are long overdue. It is an obvious blight on the game.
That's fine, we disagree. None of the purchases you've listed were strikers with a proven goalscoring record. I think Gracia has shown he can comfortably keep this squad in the prem so Gino will know he can weaken the squad a little to balance the books. I therefore expect at least one high profile sale £40m+ and a couple of cheap acquisitions £5m-£10m.
So that was us at 30/40% and that was Southampton at 100%. Sign of a good team that we can still pick up points when underperforming. Nothing new about Andre Grey last night, but if we were ever to push into the top 6 then a huge upgrade would be needed upfront.
Actually, I thought Mike Dean was very good for us last night. He could easily have given a penalty to Southampton as a foul was clearly made inside the box but started just a fraction outside. He let the game flow and allowed a lot of dubious challenges, of which we were the beneficiaries, on a lot of occasions.
If you're referring to Kabasele tripping Long, that was definitely outside the box. Long fell into the box, as strikers do, but the foul had finished before then on all the replays I saw. The commentators said what a top decision it was. If Dean had given a penalty it would have been in error.
I think Watford's owners a very ambitious and they DO want European football. They want to do it in a sustainable way though, through clever innovations. We are constantly fed the line, we develop players to sell, and see that as something of a negative, as in it's unambitious. It's not. But it can only work if the owners are extremely football savvy. We probably have one of the most knowledgeable owners in football with a very good business sense. That's quite unusual. Most owners of clubs are clueless on the football side of things, but they are willing to invest a tonne of money in order to achieve success. They tend to be successful businessmen, but lack football intelligence...….and this is why we are so successful. We are prepared to swim in murky waters in order to unearth the next gem. We can do this without getting our fingers burnt. You could well be right in we'll be selling at least one high profile player, but the raising of the club's profile over winning an FA Cup and all that follows that, such as the Community Shield and Group Stage Europa League football, could well be something that makes them think, let's see how this next season pans out. I know they want to keep Pereyra, but he's the most likely to go, unless he signs a new contract. Obviously there's a lot of chatter over Doucoure and Deulofeu. They are the only three that would be on the radar of bigger clubs though. We have no issues on retaining the rest of the squad. Depending on how this season finishes, I think next season COULD be an unusual one in terms of how we do business. That's just a hunch, but it will be interesting to see how we approach this.
It WOULD have been an error...…..but that's never stopped certain referees before. Mike Dean is top class as far as I'm concerned. A little eccentric and controversial at times, but is always decent towards Watford. One of the rare few.
Given he can guarantee 10-15 top flight goals if he starts every game I'd say Gray is worth at least £30m to a newly promoted club with deep pockets.
I've seen this sort of thing mentioned before but I do think it's incredibly difficult to find a goalscorer at this level who will score 15+ a season if you're not playing for a top 6 side. Look at the ones you mentioned Southampton Ings - 8 goals, 2 assists, a goal every 194 mins Long - 4 goals, 1 assist, a goal every 262 mins Austin - 3 goals, 2 assists, a goal every 324 mins Newcastle Perez - 11 goals, 2 assists, a goal every 252 mins. This is his best season by far Rondon - 10 goals, 6 assists, a goal every 235 mins Bournemouth Wilson - 13 goals, 8 assists, a goal every 184 mins King - 11 goals, 3 assists, a goal every 245 mins Fulham Mitrovic - 11 goals, 3 assists, a goal every 274 mins Burnley Barnes - 11 goals, 2 assists, a goal every 194 mins Wood - 11 goals, 2 assits, a goal every 218 mins Watford Deeney - 11 goals, 5 assists, a goal every 245 mins Delefeou - 11 goals, 5 assists, a goal every 180 mins Gray - 8 goals, 3 assists, a goal every 188 mins Of all those mentioned only Delefeou and Wilson (takes pens) have a better strike rate. He may have his faults as do all in the above list but the next step above this lot would be the likes of the player Wolves have just bought for £30m which is out of our price bracket. I think he's vastly improved this year but I don't think we will be in the market for a striker come the summer unless one of ours leaves. I think they are looking at Cucho and Peneranda as the future. I would say a defender or two is much more pressing
I see the usual suspects on here are sh!tting the bed over Gray...there's a surprise. I'd be interested to see how all of you detractors would handle running your arses off into the channels then having to compete for 50 yard balls in the air on your own whilst the midfield sits deep so you have no support and your front partner is 30 yards away from you roaming the pitch. Messi's, the lot of you I bet. Just going to throw this out there, when De Gea makes an instinctive save with his legs, he's world class. When the Southampton keeper does it, it's because Gray is rubbish. Have a word with yourselves, clean up your mess.
I'm sure they would like European football but that will be difficult to achieve with a net inflow on transfer fees this summer. It will take some clever acquisitions and it seems to me that the whole prem is now a lot smarter at finding these hidden gems. I personally don't think Euro football is a realistic longer term target given this. I'm sure staying in the prem "comfortably" while balancing the books with clever buys will be the very tough but potentially achieveable target with the odd UEFA cup (or whatever it's called these days) foray. The challenge will be that fans always want year on year improvement and if we were to finish say 11th next season there will be a lot of apathy/frustration/disappointment on here about "missed opportunity to push on". This season has created a bit of a rod for Gino/Gracia's backs so it would be really good to achieve something while we can, be that European qualification or a cup win.
It's a difficult 1. This team has been 4 years in the making and after a lot of dull football it's now great fun being a Watford fan in the prem. the performances are even more enjoyable than the results. it'll be interesting to see how keen Gino is to cash in on players having only just reached the level we r at. most football clubs r a house of cards waiting to collapse. will Gino want to risk going back to dull football and fighting relegation?
I think the point I have made is being missed. Like I said, it's not about scoring goals, as I think Gray and Deeney's goal returns have been very good this season. It's about what Gray does in the build up. His involvement in the attacks. He's extremely poor in this. Our attacks are quickly broken down as soon as he's on the ball, the opposition obtain possession quickly and we're on the backfoot again. No one is saying anything about Deeney. It's clear Deeney is probably not as productive as Gray in terms of scoring goals (mins per goal ratio), but he offers so much more to the team. Our attacks have menace and the ball tends to stay up field for a lot longer when Deeney's playing. Defend from the front. Like I also said previously, I could live with Gray's misses (not missus....although...hmmm), but what I dislike is his clumsy heavy touch in the build up play. I think other players are avoiding passing to him as they do not trust him.
I don't think your point has been missed, the stats don't support you - the simple fact is, he's not a target man and you can't seem to accept that.
Fascinating point, now any chance of you going on to explain what possible relevance it has to this discussion?
You want credit for that, he's bound to be insured. I would suggest you have let yourself, the team and the supporters down by not taking that opportunity when it was presented. Hopefully not a mistake you would make twice.
A dreadful first half and an improved second half pretty much sums it up. Why did we consistently lump the ball long to Gray and Delefeou? Delefeou has never won a header in his life. However, we got a point that puts us 7th so there is a positive to take from last night Foster - Kicking was a little iffy but was excellent apart from that Janmaat - I always worry about his pace against quick players but actually did well last night and does give us an extra option going forward. I would like to see us continue to play him and Femenia at the same time. Catchcart - Mr Dependable had one of those nights when nothing went right. I'm sure it's a one off!! Kabasele - Still prefer him to Mariappa and thought he was pretty decent last night Masina - I thought he was awful and I know somebody else thought he was great so I'm probably wrong. Seemed to get caught out of position a lot and eased off the ball far too easily Capoue - The only one of the midfield to come out with any credit. Tried to get things going but a lot of others in midfield were very poor Doucoure - The first half was easily the worst 45 minutes of football he's played for us. Improved after the break but still not good. His passing could stop him from going to a big team. It's not how often he gives it away, which was a lot last night, it's the inability to pick a pass. So often we had so much space out wide but he chooses to hold on to it and the chance is lost Hughes - Please god play him in the middle. Good passer of the ball and spots passes that others don't see although last night he was rubbish. Pereyra - I think we maybe seeing the last of him as he looks like a player that wants to be somewhere else now. So much talent but once again last night just not involved enough again. Suspect he will head back to Italy in the summer Delefeou - Kept trying, although in the attacking sense, but must have got fed up with the quality of service he was getting. Is it just me or does anybody else find him difficult to like, I don't mean as a player, he just strikes me as a bit of a bell end Gray - Poor game but equally poor service. They say very deep so he struggle to get his runs round the back but kept the effort level up and go his goal in the end Success - Should have been on earlier as we were going long but somebody desperately needs to coach the falling over out of him. Just down the line from me he controlled the ball and with the defender a good foot or two behind him just fell over. It's embarrassing We go again
I have seen a lot worse refs, but it was still pretty clear that they were time wasting throughout (not as bad as Stoke, but still time wasting consistently). As for the pen, we were directly in line and it was definitely a foul, but definitely outside the box - the player just threw himself into the area after the contact.
I think one point is that Andre does what he does at speed under pressure. It ain't easy! We often outscore opponents with Andre on the pitch. He must b doing something right!
But his game is not a hold up type of player, it's about making runs and finding space which he does very well. His touch is not good but there was a German striker, Muller I think, who played for Germany and Bayern Munich who's all round game was pretty much dreadful but had a knack for scoring goals. Playing Gray last night on his own while we thumped the ball at him in the air was utterly pointless, got to play to his strengths
What I can't accept is his ability in the build up of moves. Deulofeu and Pereyra are not target men, but they keep the move going more often than not. You cannot have someone so untrustworthy with the ball. It's hard to sustain pressure and puts us on the back foot when it all breaks down with him. It happens far too often to be overlooked.
