Watford Fc 1-3 Stoke City - League Cup 3rd Round - 21/09/2021

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by wfc4ever, Aug 25, 2021.

  1. Clive_ofthe_Kremlin

    Clive_ofthe_Kremlin Squad Player

    Agreed. But I'd say Fletcher is a very useful back up on the bench, or if King gets injured.
     
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  2. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Scoring a goal against Stoke reserves in a cup nobody really cares about is fine and fair play for doing that but he won't get chances like he had last night in the Premier League and his all round game is poor. I'm fairly convinced that he would not have made the run King made for Sarrs first goal on Saturday. Give me King over Fletcher all day
     
  3. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Well Bachmann would have saved it 100%.

    Watch it again without the misleading photo. He just doesn't move his feet. He's rooted to the spot until the ball sails over him, then it's too late as it's out of his reach.

    A keeper has to be on his toes and be agile. If he takes just a couple of steps back it's a simple tip over the bar. He's misjudged the flight of the ball and it has to go down as an error of judgement. IMO of course.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  4. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Well, we haven't seen JP yet this season, but as 3rd/4th choice strikers go, Fletch is fine. I suppose if we're a goal down with 10 mins to go he might be worth a go as a battering ram too
     
  5. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    One of the standout features for me of the season so far is the apparent unreadiness of many teams for the start of the season. Aston Villa at Watford were a particularly obvious example of this.
    Both Watford's first team and now this reserve team also exhibit many of the symptoms. There was not a player out there who I didn't think would benefit from both more game-time and from playing with one another a lot more. Some more than others: Louza looks to have many attributes - a potentially skillful, hard-working player who thinks too slowly and is caught out by the pace of the game. Fletcher I'd certainly put in this category. Would I put him in the first team ahead of Josh King? No. But I'd have him on the bench, to bring on if things have gone wrong, because he offers something different. We haven't really got any body else quite like him, although I admit he doesn't represent a high-quality player just yet.
     
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  6. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    The bits I liked were Louza's very accurate long balls to send the wingers away. We've generally been too slow to get the ball to Saar so haven't made the best use of his pace. Good use, but not the best use. And now we've got three quick forwards to mount counter-attacks.

    Starting deep, which gives him more time and space he could be our new Ian Bolton.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  7. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Elliott looked like a third-choice 'keeper to me. He is certainly someone who has not participated in many proper, competitive games for a long while. Just generally not quick or agile enough. But it's an overall impression, I don't think he could be held accountable for the Stoke goals - maybe the third one, but I'm not sure, the guy has sliced a cross and it has gone perfectly as a shot. Did he really get to the shot that hit the bar? He should have done, but it didn't look like it to me. Another very good example, I feel, of someone who needs more game-time, but isn't going to get it and therefore he's in a vicious circle. (The sort of thing the Carabao Cup is very useful for).
     
  8. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Looks like he did get a tip onto the bar tbf. I suppose what you say about Elliot is true, although he's probably more than happy being 3rd choice
     
  9. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    King hasn't "been playing well and looking dangerous in Prem games though" - he's had one decent second half against Norwich, other than that he's done absolutely bugger all. Even against Norwich he still seemed to lack the sharpness in front of goal to be a regular PL scorer any more.

    You talk about the level of the opposition, but the teams Fletcher has scored against aren't really that much different from the atrocious Norwich team King still didn't score against.

    From what I've seen I reckon Fletcher deserves a few chances off the bench in upcoming PL games.
     
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  10. PowerJugs

    PowerJugs Doyley Fanatic

    @reids says according to WyScout the xG was 4.22 vs 0.99 for Stoke. Fletcher's goal alone was 0.79 xG with 1.70 xG all game.

    Seems about right.
     
  11. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    A few injuries to our first team and we're in big trouble based on last night's display - at least we can now concentrate on finishing 19th.

    Louza looked alright in parts but very lightweight and a bit wet behind the ear, potential to be a very good player further down the line.

    Xisco once again just threw a bunch of players into his usual formation, quite clear that the midfield needed TC or Sissoko very early on.

    Highlights of the evening: Ticket didn't work. Pie was tasty. Budweiser tastes like shyte. More stewards than a PL game.
     
  12. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    This was the point I made earlier. They are not all going to play at once. I don't mind Louza or Sema or Cucho playing in a Premier League game as long as most of the other first choice players are still there. Not a chance that starting eleven from last night starts any other game this season in the Premier League
     
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  13. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Just wait to see what we cobble together when AFCON is on and we have three or four injuries as well. Marriapa will be back! :)
     
  14. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Kind of agree with this, obviously they won't all play in one go, but as of now, the only players from that XI who I'd say 'belong' in a league first XI are Tufan (when up to speed), Cucho and Sierralta. Sema, Elliot, Gosling and Masina shouldn't be anywhere near the first XI, Louza looks a fair way off being Prem ready (if he ever will be), Kabasele didn't do much wrong by the sounds of it, and is probably better than Cathcart, but still shouldn't be in the team, Fletcher is a bench player at best, and Ngakia can raise his game, but is behind Kiko for a reason despite Kiko's well-known defensive frailties
     
  15. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    Very balanced PJ. If the finishing had been sharper this would have been a comfortable win. Barring injuries that was the best line Stoke could have fielded.

    Fletcher and Gosling are Championship material. Elliot will likely never again play for the club. Tufan and Louza need to get up to speed and Masina needs to look at himself some times. Disappointing to lose of course but a win over Newcastle at the weekend and more preparation and fitness work with some friendlies during the international break will suit us down to the ground.
     
  16. RS2

    RS2 Squad Player

    I can't believe those misses from Masina and Gosling in the first half. Honestly embarrassing.
     
  17. ruisliphorn

    ruisliphorn Academy Graduate

    I’m not being antagonistic, but are you making these judgements without even having gone to the game?
     
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  18. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Fair, although I don't know how much yesterday told about much of our second string
     
  19. MIlton Dammers

    MIlton Dammers Reservist

    Watching Gosling now makes me wonder how he managed to get so many games for Muff in the Prem. Has he had any bad injuries that might have made him less effective, or could it just be age catching up with him?
     
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  20. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I'd forgotten about that. Bugg3r
     
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  21. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    When it was successful, Muff's system was always about exactly that, 'the system', rather than the individual quality of the players. Judging by your reaction to Gosling, I think you'd be shocked to see some of the regular players from those first few years up in the Prem for them - Marc Pugh played 26 times for them in the league in 15-16...
     
  22. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    Agreed, Louza with Sissoko & Tufan / Clevs might be better protected. Fletcher with Sarr & Dennis flanking may look less sh*t.

    No hope for Masina though. Awful, awful footballer.
     
  23. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Squad Player

    Was always competent but not outstanding his whole career - from what I've seen.
     
  24. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Good performance that should have resulted in a comfortable win were it not for some bad luck with their goals 2&3, and some inspired stoke goalkeeping. Just a shame we are out of the cup.
     
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  25. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    The commentary is very Stoke biased. “ Clukas just passed the ball into the corner. He’s got that in his locker. A ten out of ten finish”. No mention of the deflection:)
     
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  26. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    I guess another thing we did get to see, is our "Championship" back up team is good enough if we go down and lose all our stars. We took on a side about their level and if it wasn't for the fluke goals we might of nicked a point.
     
  27. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    This game did underline there is quite a divide between first choice and rotational/backup players.

    On the right side of that line are Foster, Bachmann, Rose, Sierralta, WTE, Kiko, Tufan, Kucka, Sissoko, Etebo, Cleverley, Dennis, Sarr, King, Cucho, Pedro.

    The rest are mainly players you think will lower the level of the team if they play. Elliot, Ngakia, Masina, Gosling, Louza, Cathcart, Kabs, Sema, Fletcher. Having said that Fletcher, Ngakia and Louza have time on their side to improve and I expect they will. Not seen Baah yet, but I suspect he's being held back for a reason.

    So of a squad of 26, only 16 I would consider to be players who can make a difference, the other 10 would struggle to make an impact in the Championship. This is a real dilemma as we need to go through an entire season without injuries to that team which started against Norwich. I'd say that's about as close to our best XI as possible, with maybe the addition of Tufan for Kucka and Sierralta for Cathcart.

    This is why I think we'll struggle this season, as it's not feasible to expect no injuries to first team performers. The squad is not big enough and nearly half of the squad are not up to the required level for Premier League.
     
  28. PowerJugs

    PowerJugs Doyley Fanatic

    A little harsh. Ngakia, Kabasele and Fletcher for me are on the right side as well.

    Ngakia does have a bad habit of giving away cheap passes which were fortunate not to be punished v Stoke (And the 1st goal was him failing to shield it out) but he does have good qualities too with his crossing, more direct style of play and made a number of lung busting runs to help the defence. No, he's not as good as Femenia overall but I don't think oh no either when he plays and doesn't massively impact the quality of the XI.

    Kabasele didn't do anything wrong against Stoke; the first goal was not his error and the other 2 goals were an unlucky deflection and 1 in a 100 mis hit, neither of which were to do with him. We know he does have a brain fart in him every few games but we're a stronger squad with him than without. It's easy to forget our first win of the Season featured him and WTE together too.

    Fletcher is what Deeney was trying to do the last few Seasons but has the mobility to actually try and make it work. I actually overall like what I see from him even if his finishing was inexcusable v Stoke given the chances made.

    I fully agree that Cathcart, Masina, Gosling, Sema and most likely Baah do noticeably reduce the XI quality though. Louza I find very hard to judge but certainly in the immediate term he also negatively impacts the XI quality until he gets up to speed. Elliot is a competent if uninspiring third choice keeper, like almost any other PL club and will almost never feature bar highly unusual situations like Stoke.
     
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  29. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I too would defend Ngakia. What I really like about him is his positivity, which is lacking in a number of our players, particularly the centre-backs. At Norwich it resulted in our second goal from his quick pass to King, but inevitably trying that sort of thing will mean at times he will give the ball away. On Tuesday he had a poor game in that regard but still looked to be positive and I wouldn't want him to lose that.
     
  30. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I did say Ngakia, Louza and Fletcher have time to improve and I expect they will. But I think it's a fair reflection on the squad as it is right now. The drop off between Rose and Masina, or Kiko and Ngakia is too great, IMO. Sure these guys can fill in, but only occasionally. If any of the players in my second list get a lot of game time, then our results will start to suffer.

    With Kabs, I'm of the opinion he's ok as a backup but not as a rotational player. If you give him a lot of game time you will quickly see mistakes in his game. I do blame him partly for the second goal against Stoke. He should have been over immediately after Ngakia's mistake to stop the cross from coming in, but he just held his position. That type of judgement is just not good enough and will cost us goals in the Premier League.

    The way I view our squad, is the midfield is decent and can rotate without losing too much quality.

    The wingbacks are decent, but we cannot rotate. The central defence is scraping by even on the first choice pairing, but cannot rotate.

    The forwards are decent but we cannot rotate, although I do believe we can move players about to give us a different look, which is probably the way we'll have to change things up.

    Basically, apart from our midfield, we have to play our preferred first choice players all the time. We just cannot rotate the personnel without losing a lot of quality.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2021
  31. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Deflecting the ball off an opposing player so that it goes into the net is an important skill that few can master.
     
  32. PotGuy

    PotGuy Forum Fetishist

    Who cares
     

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