For me this is a sad reflection of the ownership. After 9 years of the Pozzo’s reign, we should be in the type of mess we find ourselves in right now. We have large debt, an awful product on the pitch, a ridiculous hire and fire managerial policy. We should be a well oiled machine, with players coming through the ranks, to replace ageing stars or players who are naturally moving on to better things. We have a lot to thank Gino for, but his running of the club over the past 2/3 years has been pretty abysmal. Far too many poor decisions for comfort.
You're changing your tune very quickly - first you said we should sell him to improve us, now you say that actually we should "sell" him but actually somehow keep him on loan... Why on Earth would Liverpool buy Sarr for £50mil in January to then loan him back to us for the rest of the season?! It's not "a mugs game" - you're only not doing it because you know it's impossible and it will further highlight the nonsense you're spouting. Also "if invested wisely" - again how we will do that? And where is the evidence that we are capable of investing such money "wisely" in a January transfer window. A reminder that our biggest signings under the Pozzos have been Gray, who was a waste, and Sarr who you're saying we need to sell already.
All this arguing when we're going down regardless of who we sell or sign. Gino could have £200m to play with and still spend it on the wrong players.
What was so good about his performance? Making some saves our academy keeper would have made? Constantly losing possession with his distribution?
I’d never presume to tell you what your motivations are. Despite our long time opposing views, it’s very interesting to me that you are losing interest. You certainly aren’t alone. I think it’s important to recognise that just a few years ago, we were in pole position for a 7th place finish. The worst thing happened, the club also reached a cup final. We weren’t also-fans that time or any of the other seasons we were in the PL. We were a club threatening to evolve to the next level. I don’t think the PL has changed that much in that time. The potential was completely squandered and we are where we are. Except this time, we don’t have anything to be excited about. Any youth players with potential are wasted or sent away, any signings we make are questionable in their motive, there’s zero effort on the pitch, no discernible style, no long term plan, no short term plan, an embarrassing reputation for sacking coaches and being defined by high placed pundits as being one of the worst PL squads of all time. These issues cannot be waved away by ‘our owner isn’t a billionaire’, ‘any good young player is taken by the big boys’ or ‘the PL isn’t fair’. Don’t know about you, but if we had a style or some young players to get behind, a team that gave 100% effort in games like Saturday, any attempt to forge a long term goal, any discernible idea about what we wanted to do - I’d suggest that league position, results like Saturday and the overall weighting of the PL would be far less of an issue for you and the majority of us.
The challenge may well be who would want to come, if we are 19th/20th by the time the window comes ? More loanees/exit options ready to jump ship if we are relegated 4 months later ? Interestingly Newcastle just may have the same issue. Prepared to pay £100m+ for a player and ridiculous salaries, but if they are in the bottom 2 or 3, which players would take the risk of heading there mid-season and risk championship football next season ? I guess there'll find a way round it...but fingers crossed. Without the investment I'm pretty certain they would have been one of the bottom 3. Maybe many of their current 11 will lack commitment if they believe they will be replaced in 3 month's time ?
Newcastle will bring in the right coach and do more than enough to stay up. Unlike us, they will have a squad of players knowing that they are playing for a potential role in the bigger picture.
So much changed with that cup final humiliation and the run up to it. Form, commitment and heart all went out of the window. On the face of it, we had just finished 11th in the prem our highest for 30 odd years, even toyed with 7th, had reached a cup final, signed a solid reliable defender in Dawson, and 2 exciting forwards. We were looking forward to a season with forwards like Deulofeu/Welbeck/Sarr, with Capoue/Doucoure/Hughes behind them despite operating on a smaller budget than others. It really felt like we had managed to establish ourselves but that loss of form and cup humiliation seemed to kill everything. The squad we have now is so very far beneath the squad we were relegated with and I doubt we will ever get back to where we were without massive financial investment from somewhere. The rest of the league has moved on and we are playing catch up, and failing.
Foster 6 Cathcart 5 Troost-Ekong 5 Rose 4.5 Kiko 5 (Ngakia 5) Kucka 5 Sissoko 6 Masina 4 (Cleverly 5.5) Dennis 5 (Pedro 6) Sarr 5 Cucho 5.5 The above scores are from another paper, but they both seem to broadly agree who they thought were our better and our worse players, though I think the 1st paper I quoted vastly under marked Sissoko as he was clearly our MotM to my mind. Here is what I think: - Foster 6 Cathcart 5 Troost-Ekong 4.5 Rose 4 Kiko 4.5 (Ngakia 5.5) Kucka 4 Sissoko 7 MotM Masina 4 (Cleverly 4.5) Dennis 4.5 (Pedro 5.5) Sarr 5 Cucho 5
Of course, it's a huge problem, but when you're in a sinking ship, you'll still grab a life raft even if it has a hole in it, as your options are pretty bleak otherwise. Make no mistake, Watford are almost at this desperation stage, and they will have to take what they can get and pay a premium for it. Fortunately, there are many players who would be an upgrade on our underinvested defence, but we're going to have to pay for it, even if it's an expensive loan. Watford will have stark realities in January. They WILL need to invest in the market. Will they get value for money? Unlikely. Will they get the players they've really wanted?....again unlikely, but would they be able to improve on what we already have, then almost certainly that's a yes. It all boils down to how desperate Gino is. Does he feel comfortable with another relegation? If that's a yes, then he may decide to let the season run its course, however, if he was of that mindset I don't think he would have sacked Munoz. I think he will be very concerned by the current state of affairs and may panic a little in January. Let's be honest, most of our recent decisions have been ill-informed and reactionary over the past couple of years and I see little lesson learning along the way. I think he'll try to resolve the situation in January in the same reactionary way as been the case over the past 2 or 3 seasons.
The thing is, every single season we think we are going to do big business in January. We never do. We didn’t even when we were struggling the last time. The people that run the club have openly stated they are loathed to do business in January because of the premium that players get put on them. We might get a loan in, or someone from Udinese but any idea that they’ll break the bank to keep us up is one that doesn’t have much going for it. I wouldn’t even be shocked if the likes of Louza and Tufan are whisked off to Udinese if they continue to rot on the bench here.
IF Claudio is still here in January, and we have assembled somewhat of a settled first eleven, I do think he will have the clout to go to Gino and ask for any extra recruits he feels we may need. Dependent on where we are in the table, this will be a push for a mid table finish or if we are on the verge of relegation (and it's looking more and more likely each week) then he may not even bother. Xisco was a "yes man", but Claudio has a bit more power than Xisco ever had.
Fair point and maybe Gino will do next to nothing in the market, however, the last time I think the feeling was we had a good enough squad and the problem was the coach. This time around I think there is a clear difference and an understanding that the squad is not quite good enough, certainly in the defensive area. Etebo has been a big loss too and we need another player of his type, who is busy and energetic in midfield. For me, it all depends on how scared Gino is of being relegated.
This is what I don't get, bringing in Ranieri says to me that the board are hoping to stay up. But, if that is the case then it's just plain stupid to go into the season with the squad we have available to us. Because realistically we will have to be extremely lucky to stay up. We are banking on 3 teams being worse than us currently 3 are. Maybe initially The Pozzo's and the board were happy to let the season run its course and reduce the debt, and then after a few games thought hang on we may not have to be that good to stay up so brought in a more experienced manager to try and get our inadequate team to play above themselves. I said this in the boozer the other day if Ranieri keeps us up with this squad it will be just as big of an achievement as winning the league with Leicester.
I agree, although winning the league with Leicester is a far bigger achievement, however, if he manages to keep this Watford team up, it would probably be the second biggest thing he's ever done in his managerial career. The Newcastle takeover is very unfortunate for us, as it takes away a direct rival. That only really leaves Burnley and Norwich. I cannot see another team we could climb above now. But me not seeing it doesn't mean we cannot get above a side like Southampton, Leeds or Palace. I'm hoping Brentford's bubble will burst, but I don't see them going on a major bad run this season. They seem to have too much about them. Maybe Brighton could go on a bad run, but like Brentford, I think they've done enough to stay up already.
That comment doesn't lend any support to the idea that Liverpool would buy Sarr in Jan for 50mil then loan him back to us, or we would be capable of succesfully investing that money to improve the side and replace Sarr's goals. Your comment is a cop-out because you know you're points are nonsensical and can not be reasonably justified. You might as well say that you "disagree" that Watford are a football club - it would make about as little sense of the statements you're already making.
Of course they "want" to stay up. I'm sure the swap to Ranieri was an attempt to get more from the existing assets than a sign that they will do whatever it takes to stay up in Jan. I'm sure they will attempt to strengthen but we won't be outbidding anyone so will as usual be a case of bringing in players that other prem clubs don't really want. That Scott D interview suggested that they accept they can't compete financially and are resigned to a future of flipping between champ and prem but then again a lot of what he said in that interview has already had a coach and horses driven through it.
You are just in rant mode, with everyone on here today, so it's a futile discussion because you are just looking for an argument. I can't be bothered with all that so, you can have your opinion and I'll have mine.
Yes, Sarr will leave this summer; it's just about how much he costs based on which division we're in, and that could affect which team buys him - it could also genuinely affect our finances. If we stay up we might get what we paid for him - maybe even £10-20m more if at some point we enter dreamland and he does enough to secure that survival. But if we don't, I think he could go for as low as £20m, and then there would be quite a few more suitors - and an up-to £50m lacuna in our bank balance. But I don't see any way in which Utd would pay £70m (or, indeed, anything remotely approaching that) in January - they will know that he is available for no more than that in a few months time, and potentially very significantly less, and even more fundamentally, they don't have a need for him - they are currently leaving out more talented attackers just to accommodate an ageing superstar, and they spent that same figure this summer on the future of the England team who plays in the same position as Sarr. They have Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho alone in direct competition - no way are they in the market for another megabucks wide player, and certainly not one as inconsistent at the top level as Sarr still is for someone who turns 24 in February. I'm not trying to pretend anything, nor did I at any point in my comment - I even alluded to my belief that there is some theoretical merit in the idea and we could potentially prosper, but I don't think you're being realistic at all - there's just no chance we get the required fee at that point in time (if ever), and even less so if we have to do it in January. With the Pozzo picking the transfer targets we wouldn't get anywhere near the spend that would allow us to import a ready-made swashbuckling replacement, which was my initial point. It should also be noted that there is a difference between having a solid defence but your 'forward line being poor', and whatever our forward line would be, even if we upgraded our defence, without Sarr, at this point. We don't have another player capable of creating an opportunity.
That's funny, because I don't recall Gino ever cashing in on our leading goalscorer in January in any of the past 2 or 3 seasons.
The question has to be asked then, why is that the case? The majority of the squad have just been promoted and must be as eager as anyone to prove themselves in one of the biggest leagues in the world and against some of the best players, and even some of those who have just joined us haven't played football regularly (if at all) for a while or are playing in the Prem for the first time. FFS, what more motivation do you need? But I think it's not as simple as that, and maybe they lost their way under Xisco who didn't know what he was doing against teams better than us, a mindset that Ranieri is yet to coach out of the players, and not doing the things you mentioned is down to a fear factor/lack of confidence rather than not being bothered. You still need a certain level of bravery, energy, fitness and confidence that you're doing the right thing to do those things, and against a team like Liverpool who can tear you apart if you put a foot wrong it can be hard to find a happy medium between playing it safe (or you might say basically doing nothing) and making bold but wrong-headed decisions. And of course how the opposition performs plays a key part; Liverpool basically dictated the game from kick-off and the team never really recovered. Against the lesser teams you mentioned though, it's harder to explain the supposed lack of application or attitude problem other than the Xisco factor.
Not true, I'd be perfectly willing to have a discussion if you actually made some points to discuss - instead you keep hiding behind excuses like "it's a mugs game" or "I disagree" as to why you can't actually justify the claims you're trying to make. You're being unwilling to engage with the questions I've asked you which are entirely relevant to the discussion, eg: - Why would Liverpool buy Sarr in Jan for 50mil then loan him back to us? - Which players could we feasibly buy in January while we're flirting with relegation and have sold our best player who would improve us and replace Sarr's goals? - When have the Pozzos actually demonstrated that they're capable of spending money wisely, especially in January? These are all genuine discussion points directly relevant to the topic and ideas you've put forward (without justification); nothing to do with just looking for an argument. There's only one person in this conversation between us not willing to actually try and discuss the relevant points being made, and it certainly isn't me.
With Megabucks United I was referring to Newcastle, not Man Utd. They are the only mug punters in town. It's making the best of a bad situation. We could keep Sarr but don't strengthen in January, then we go down. We could sell Sarr for a good price and strengthen which would give us a chance of staying up. Might even sell to a club like Liverpool and keep him on loan as part of the deal. That would be a very good outcome for us. Having our cake and eating it although that might just be a bit too fanciful. We've got to be realistic. Is Sarr going to stay beyond the end of this season? I don't think anyone expects that to happen. So we face the choice. We can keep him, try to strengthen on a limited budget in January and hope for the best or do we sell at an optimum time, when we're holding all the cards and try to strengthen obvious flaws in the team with the Sarr money in January. If we keep him it's a big gamble, as going down will almost certainly mean we will not get the premium price for Sarr as a Championship club. The owner will be starkly aware of that. So the choices aren't good, but one of those will almost certainly play out, no matter how tough it is.
I just don't like the way you communicate. Far too argumentative and confrontational. It's not worth getting involved with as it becomes you said this.....blah, blah. It takes far too much energy and gets nowhere. I just disagree with your view and you disagree with mine. End of story.
You're repeating almost everything I said in my comments back to me as though I didn't say them, which I find strange - I've already addressed everything you've said here, again, and it's true; there's no chance we will sell him to Liverpool for £50m and then they loan us him back. Current serious talk is that they are interested in Raphinha for a similar fee anyway, and they'd have to be mad to go for Sarr over him, so that can most likely be counted out even more so. AGAIN, as in my last two posts - I KNOW Sarr will be leaving - that's abundantly clear, particularly in the second - but you say we have to be realistic (as I, myself, did beforehand in my response to you) but you are totally refusing to engage with my sole major point - if we sell Sarr in January, even if we do get a moonman fantasy scenario where we get decent money from him (and why would Newcastle do that when they have ASM in the same position, frankly) how will we bring in anyone (if we do at all) to replace the threat that he does bring, however relatively meagre yet vital it is for us? THAT is where the serious hole in the plan is to be found.
Again, it's so transparent and predictable - as soon as you ever make a point which you really can't justify you repeatedly come up with obfuscation and diversions to try and hide from it. Just saying "I disagree" is not an answer to the perfectly valid discussion points which I put to you in a civilised manner in my previous post.
I'm not talking about your opinion, I'm just stating mine. If you are in agreement then that's good. It shows you are smart Could you place your "sole major point" in bold next time, so I don't over look it. Thanks. So to answer your sole major point, we don't bring in a Sarr replacement. We strengthen other areas such as defence, midfield and a central striker. Ranieri plays a 4-4-2 preferred system, so he doesn't really require an out-an-out winger. Of course we all want Sarr to say, but you must understand that this is a damage limitations exercise, not something we're doing out of choice. It's not a carefully planned decision that was the thinking when we started the season. It's clear to most that we've f***ed up the recruitment. We need money in order to resolve that. Getting big money quickly into the club is only going to come from selling Sarr in all reality. So that's your choice. We're going to sell him in the summer anyway, so why not sell him now where the money can be of real us to us? It's not a decision that would please fans, but it's for the greater good. Look at Brighton. Our forward line is much better than theirs, but their defence is the cornerstone of their success. We need to be solid. We need players who are going to fight, hold their positions, know when to press. We need players of indigence and energy. It all costs money, but if Brighton can do it, then so can we. For my mind, there is too much wrong for a little tinker here and there. Something radical needs to happen, and selling Sarr is our only real option in order to free up funds. It's easy to ask the next question.....who would we sign? But that is for the recruitment team. They will have a host of probable's on their shopping list, and the only thing stopping it is the funding.
Just do what I do, if someone disagrees with you just reply and then block them. That way you always win the argument.
