War? Huh! Good God. What Is It Good For? The Uk’s Next War: Poll

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by Moose, Oct 29, 2021.

?

War is stupid and people are stupid

  1. The French (They are up to something)

    25.0%
  2. Och noo! A newly independent Scotland

    50.0%
  3. Tory pals Russia

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Iran

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Spain

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Belgium (why not?)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. USA

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. China (over Taiwan)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Argentina

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Afghanistan

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Pakistan

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Republic of Ireland

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. North Korea

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  14. Iraq

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Libya

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  16. Iceland

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Any other small country for votes

    25.0%
  1. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Left wing people are almost always highly cautious about censorship because any move to censor can be used against them. I’m not sure where the hypocrisy is and it’s not inconsistent to demand free speech and marginalise dangerous lies.
     
  2. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Left-wing people are, liberals seem very pro-censorship. Many people are being censored on incredibly flimsy grounds. There is a lot of intellectual dishonesty occurring imo. It is ok for mainstream media channels to lie and not get de-monetized, but not smaller channels. YouTube, Facebook etc are now promoting "authoritative" (mainstream) sources, over smaller channels who actually do proper journalism. The algorithms are now rigged in this way. This is a political choice made by the democrats.

    If Facebook existed in 2002/2003, it would be shutting down people debunking the WMD lies that led to the Iraq invasion. The justification would have been to "suppress dangerous lies".

    Lot's of people are happy to accept the narrative of political parties and intelligence services these days. This has only been amplified since Trump was elected.
     
    HenryHooter likes this.
  3. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I don’t think there has been a period in history when so much wrongheadedness has been so amplified. I don’t know the situation in the States, but very little is censored here.

    The WMD issue certainly wouldn’t have been because 1.5m of us marched and Labour front benchers resigned. You can’t silence that.

    What you can do, if you have the power, is shove it down the news cycle and have a thousand and one contrarians paid to shout it down and throw out red herrings. And that’s what happens. If you try to tackle the red herrings you get the roaring sense of victimhood. I don’t mistake that for victimhood.
     
  4. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    When you say wrongheadedness what are you specifically referring to, out of interest?

    I take it you mean Brexit and Anti-Vaxxers?

    If so, fair enough. I am referring to social media companies and the States, rather than the UK.

    Let's be honest, the PLP were the first ones to kick off when Biden made the (rare) sensible decision to withdraw troops from Afghanistan. I reckon they'd vote for foreign intervention again in a heartbeat.
     
  5. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Nailed it.
     
  6. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Well, it was Novarro "we are literally communists" Media who said it was OK for private companies to censor who they liked, until it happened to them, and the right wing sites came out to defend Novarro's access to the platform.

    So what is said above does not seem to be reflected by the facts.
     
  7. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Here is the problem.

    The left believe, according to the above argument, that if you disagree with them, you are wrong headed. Other people need to be protected from your wrong headedness. The left, not the plebs who they wish to protect, are the judge of your wrong headedness.

    That view of the left, is, with respect to posters on this forum who do not see the link, the point of view of a fascistic elite. Twenty years ago, every one of us would have recognised that fact and called it out.

    I am not saying any posters on here are fascists, I am once again pointing out that arguments the left have been putting over the last few years are far closer to the extremes of politics than those being put by the moderates/right. I am willing to believe that they genuinely do not see it, but I do not believe that is an excuse for ignoring it.

    People ask how a nation can sleep walk into fascism. Here, I believe, we are seeing it in real time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
  8. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Yes, there’s little to suggest they’ve learned a lesson, though Ed Miliband said ‘no’ when leader.
     
  9. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    In my view people are considerably less prepared to accept the narrative of political parties and intelligence services than at any point in the past century. So I don’t really get the ‘these days’ bit.
     
  10. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    I disagree. Mainstream media will often receive info from intelligence agencies and take this gospel. People will often lap this info up uncritically.
     
  11. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Miliband does seem to have some principles, unlike many of the PLP
     
  12. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    I think, given Folkstone is talking about the US, it is very fair of him to make that point.

    For instance, Russia Gate. "Lots of people" are still taking the word of the FBI witnesses, the Democrats and the Never Trumper Republicans, rather than recognising that no evidence could be found to support the accusations, despite every effort being made to find it. I believe that all charges against American citizens are procedural, and not one actually relates to collaboration.
     
  13. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    So how is that different to, say, 30 years ago? What’s changed? If they’re doing it now they’ve been doing it all along. But the difference is people are far less trusting of the media, politicians and various agencies of the state than in previous generations.
     
  14. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    Can you imagine , even thirty years ago, the press simply ignoring or dismissing a story like Hunter Biden’s lap top? Or blatantly lying about a speech (Trump’s Charlottesville speech) that anyone can watch for themselves? Or lying about the death of a policeman (officer Sicknick at the Capitol)?

    And it is not just that they lied about these thing, but that they doubled and tripled down on them, and would likely find it hard even to acknowledge the truth of it today.

    I can’t remember a time when so much of the press were so blatantly and damagingly partisan myself. I doubt many can.

    Certainly the press have always been partisan, but now they are idealists and zealots in a way I have never seen before.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
    folkestone orn likes this.
  15. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    I doubt whether 30 years ago the press would have, so uncritically, pushed the Russiagate conspiracy at the behest of intelligence services.

    Media is more beholden to political and financial interests than ever before. 'Journalists' have to toe the party line or they will be kicked out of the club. Breaking the big media companies up and free them from toxic financial interests would certainly help.

    It's similar, if not quite so bad, in the UK. Let's be honest. In the age of information it's far easier and cheaper for news stations to parrot narratives which are fed to them. The BBC for example spend less money paying reporters to do proper journalism, as they can do 'newspaper reviews'. All this does is amplify the views of billionaire tax avoiders. 30 years ago, they were more likely to do proper journalism.

    So the answer to your questions are:
    -Monopolisation of media companies.
    -The companies employ people who will not challenge the narrative, or they'll be sacked.
    -Money saved by spending less on proper journalism.

    I wish you were right and people were less trusting, unfortunately I don't think this is the case.
     
  16. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    This polling by Gallup proves we’re both right (I think).

    The long term trend is that 70% (ish) trust in the mass media in the 1970s is down to 40% today:

    upload_2021-10-31_12-19-26.png

    (The graph only covers more recent times)

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/321116/americans-remain-distrustful-mass-media.aspx

    Of course it also shows the recent partisan effect you’re getting at:

    upload_2021-10-31_12-22-28.png

    But then it’s also the case that the most watched news network is Fox, the same as MSNBC and CNN together.

    I’m also sure I’ve read that during the Cold War the CIA basically had pet journalists and an impressive ability to both draw attention to things it wanted and suppress those it didn’t. Here’s an example:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/...ork-built-by-the-cia-a-worldwide-network.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2021
  17. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
     
  18. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    We'll be in a new cold war soon (if we're not already!)
     
  19. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    We are being primed for a tear up with China and or Russia currently.
    Possibly over global warming , something along the lines of "if we don't destroy
    them , then they will destroy the planet"
    And it would be very useful if the West had an influx of fighting age men
    Just my 2 Bob .
     
  20. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Like @folkestone orn said, we don’t really take on superpowers. We haven’t done so since WW2 unless you count proxy wars.

    There’s a simpler way to make China assume a green agenda, which is simply to bring manufacturing back home or take it elsewhere if it doesn’t cut emissions.

    What could lead to multiple conflicts is climate driven resource shortage, droughts etc. Another reason to strike a green new deal.
     
  21. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett Reservist

    When I say "we" I mean the West as a whole
    Allies of USA no doubt
    I am sure China are preparing a "surprise" attack on Uncle Sam as we speak
     
  22. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Maybe the Chinese are working on it as we chat..
     
    HenryHooter likes this.
  23. HenryHooter

    HenryHooter Reservist

    One of my favorite films when I was a kids.

    Johnny Man, at Holywell Juniors, claimed bragging rights for weeks after it was on.
     

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