Rob Edwards Sacked

So far = after one game lol

I imagine when we signed Bayo, it was done under the assumption that Sarr and Dennis were off. And of course they still may be.

Okoye does seem odd right now, but again I’m sure it was done with good intentions. Maybe the new coaching team are bringing the best out of DB, or maybe Okoye needs some time to settle in.

But I do get people’s frustrations and it’s naturally logical to think that money could have been better used on a left-sided defender or a midfielder.

All I’d say is let’s see how the season develops. Some on here panicked after three pre-season friendlies. But who was still remembering them after we started the season with a win?! It’s normal to see our starting eleven on Monday and see those not involved and think they’ve been a waste of money but it’s a long old season ahead. We will need all our squad and a good depth will help us to stand above our rivals.

The real waste of money in my opinion was Kalu. He sounds a decent guy and a good trainer according to Gosling, but what an unnecessary transfer that was.

The real point of my original post though was to praise Rob. Early days but it seems his coaching is improving players that maybe we’d given up on.

 

My overriding point, in addition to yours, is, we are not in the position as a club, to buy "project" players or take punts at a cost of £5m. In our current position, if we make a signing for £5m, he has to be a first team starter and an upgrade to what we already have. Bayo has hardly been used by Edwards even in the friendlies. He's taken to Manaj far quicker. Bayo may develop, but nothing in his career points to justifying the £5m fee. He's not exactly a youngster either, being 25. Okoye, I'd have left well alone. I've just not been impressed with what I've seen of him, but I'm talking as a armchair fan in terms of how much I've actually seen him live. I can only judge on how I've seen him play for Nigeria and other clips on the net. His movement/reaction speed just doesn't seem good enough. Clearly Edwards is not convinced either, as he named Bachmann as his number one for the season. To pay £5m for a keeper, who may have potential, but is currently behind a keeper like Bachmann, is a poor deal and one we shouldn't have made. Having said that, I'm not against signing a keeper of potential and nurturing him, but not if the starting price is £5m. It's not something we should be doing.

Kalu, as you mentioned, and I have mentioned in the past also, is another wasted signing. He wasn't needed when we signed him, and Edwards doesn't rate him either, as he's not been used even in the friendlies. So, it all goes into the melting pot and is damning on our Sporting Director, who's job it is to make these judgement calls. Those 3 players have cost us £13m!! Scandalous really.

Back to your point on Edwards, and he has had a massive positive influence on Watford. I don't think I've seen a single Tweet or murmur from anyone in a negative way. Right now, he's an A+ for his work, and long may that continue.

 

Sign me up. It’s time to give a manager time come what may and this guy is it.

 

Way too early to judge anything imo. Utd didn't get many chances but the ones they did were poor finishes. The header for Eagen I believe was horrendous. Strolls past Kayembe and King Ken and has an unchallenged header in the box. Even the first half Kamara was eased off the ball to easily and it looked at on stage Kabs had given up.

 

I think we will need some base rules though. Presume membership of CORE doesn't affect the COG ("Critic of Gino") or BW ("Board wonderful") groups ?

 

I did actually have a listen and was good. Thanks for recomendation

 

Lessons have been learnt

 

I agree with you, which is rare.
I don't think Bayo or Okoye were on Edwards radar. Both could have been purchased for £850,000 each, but we offered £5m per player. The power of an agent.
I spoke on here about Okoye and was slagged off. I said that he was a a good shot stopper, but was weak in the air, slow off his line and poor with the ball at his feet.
I also said that he came across as a big time Charlie. I will apologise for this.
I have since met Okoye and chatted with him for a fair while.
He is keen to do well and knows the English game is intense. He is prepared to wait for his chance, but hopes the coaching will improve his game. All soundbites maybe, but he seemed genuine and was open in English and German.
Bayo was an odd signing, a run of the mill 2nd Division player in Belguim, available for €1m in January 2022.
Manaj is a hustler on the pitch and Edwards loves a players who tries.
Kalu, his taxi is waiting outside London Colney.
Ngakia is no wing back, not a decent full back and not in Edwards plans it seems.

We can't afford to waste £12m on squad fillers.
We do not have the money to waste, we are on the breadline and we can't ignore that fact.

 

Last night really reminded me of a Munoz performance pre Coventry. A nice guy that the players obviously liked but felt he had to accommodate certain players so stuck with a system that just didn't work.

It might only be that we see the best of the squad when he's forced into a change, like Xisco was when Deeney was injured. Or he might react to last night and make some changes and show that he is more adaptable.

 

The concern would be that at FGR he did really well, but then lost a load of the games at the end of the season and showed no signs of being able to change or do anything about it. Luckily they’d already done enough to get promoted.

 

Last night was so bad, it really was an "alarm bells" performance. But it's so obvious, this is what I find so frustrating. Surely those at the club aren't completely blind to the issues? Before the match, I knew we had to change our formation, We couldn't play WBA with two undercooked midfielders. We were always going to get overrun. Why couldn't the coach see it? His refusal to make changes at half time was astonishing. I thought that was really poor from Edwards. Watford were being destroyed. Only the score line denied the truth.

I do have every sympathy for him though. He has three quality forwards he has to play, but the midfield needs another body in there. With the ridiculous switching of Kamara and using Sema, you can get away with it for the odd game, but it will trip you up if you play that way too often. When you play a side with a strong midfield then you have to change your system. The wingbacks are not functioning because the players are out of position, so ditch it for now. Play a 4-3-3 system. An extra body in midfield and you still have your three up front. If Edwards can't play a different way, then we are going to run into a lot of problems with him. We must be flexible and be able to switch formations if we are being overrun.

Last night looked like plan A and nothing else. If it doesn't work, then we cross our fingers and hope for the best. That cannot be the way we operate.

 

He did change it to be fair - he dropped Joao Pedro into midfield and asked Sarr and Dennis to play narrow.

The problems largely arose due to neither Kayembe or Cleverley playing as a holding midfielder, Joao Pedro having an off-night and Dennis being so anonymous that we may as well have played with 10 men.

But he did drop an extra man into midfield, it was just a mess in various areas of the pitch in terms of people doing specific roles.

 

One of the things I liked about Slav was that he would see if it wasn't working and change it up, even in the first half of necessary.

It's still very early days, but he can't be wedded to the same team and formation as it's imbalanced, very weak in several places and easy to stifle.

 

Worth remembering that Jokanovic lost 4 of his first 8 (4 losses in a row too) and only won 2 of them. Plus he was handed a balanced squad.

Think Edwards is in between a rock and a hard place really - he either implements his system regardless of the resources or he abandons it until he is given them (which may not even happen)…

I kinda respect the fact he’s trying something new and demanding the players learn it. But at the moment it looks like a halfway house of some of his preferred system but not quite - which can easily become a great system. But Gino must give him the players.

I think it would be equally worrying if Edwards abandoned what he’s doing already personally.

 

Hope he walks

 

https://twitter.com/watfordfc/status/1556894294669156354?s=21&t=5NSAD6FGsbKIsjQU4s3dYg

Obviously 3 points and a good performance is ultimately what matters most - but I will say, things like the video above go a long way for me and show me a manager that I hope we give time to.

We all eulogise about GT and rightly so. Well Edwards has already shown that respect for the fans is at very heart of what he’s doing and I’ve longed for a manager who does more than a courteous single clap and then disappears down the tunnel behind sulking players who can’t even acknowledge the fans.

I remember going to the odd Brighton game with my best pal when I was younger and when I couldn’t get to the Watford game for whatever reason - and I always remember just how jealous I was that come rain, shine, win, lose or draw, that their manager and squad would always go up to the fans and acknowledge them, even if it was met with unanimous booing.

Yes there are early concerns on the pitch - again, I think this is largely down to the squad he’s been given and seems to be being curated with little of his input - but off the pitch, he’s showing me a guy that I want associated with this club for a long time to come.

 

I agree. As an ambassador, Edwards is A+. You'd be hard pressed to find a more positive person to lead the club. But that's only one side. Recognising fans, coming across well in press conferences is all very nice, but we need a winner as a coach. Creating a good vibe with players is vital, but that only remains while you're winning. There seemed to be a few unhappy players by the end of the game. Kamara looked very annoyed to be subbed off last night.

West Brom is a tough place, but the gulf between the sides cannot be as wide as it was last night. That's not Man City we were playing. The stats back up the horror show. I hope he learns quickly as if Burnley do the same to us on Friday, and if he sets us up the same way they probably will, then he'll be under a lot of pressure. Even at this stage, we've got to be competitive. Are we showing desire and resilience, yes I think we are which is a positive, but last night I saw a lot of worrying signs. We've scored just 2 goals, with the trio of Premier League talents up front. One of those is the early elected GotS and the other was down to a big mistake by Sheff Utd. We are not creating anywhere near enough good chances to score. Of course a missed a penalty, but that was again down to a moment of quality from Sarr which got us the award. It's not down to how we are set up to play.

Midfield is constantly overrun. If you're only going to play with two in there, then they have to be Premier League player standard. A Doucoure, Hughes, Capoue, Behrami, Louza. Two from those players would make it work. Cleveley, Gosling, TDB, Kayembe are not viable options for his system. So, unless real investment is made he HAS TO change his system to suit the players he has available to him.

Edwards is a great guy, there's no doubting that, and I think we all want him to be a success, but he has to walk the walk. He has to show he can adapt in match play to what's going on. I've seen very little sign he can do this. The same happened at Forest Green. He only won 4 of his last 17 games. That's a remarkable drop in form, which implies FGR got sussed out in the second part of the season and he wasn't able to adapt his team. As I say, I would love it if he succeeded, but I'm seeing worrying signs of inflexibility. How much on the scales is down to his formation and how much is down to recruitment is still undecided.

 

Can you remember when that was?

Brighton like many clubs similar in size to us have had some tough times with bad managers and terrible players (whatever the problems with owners and finances, we've fared better than most of that kind) - hard to believe that the same club that finished a club record 9th in the Premier League and just convincingly won at a supposedly much improved Man Utd side was the same one that almost went out of the Football League and not all that long ago nearly went down to League 2.

 

He’s been shafted with the squad so far.

He will 100% have had to outline his philosophy during interviews. The club have known since May that he wanted to play 3-5-2, but have made no progress whatsoever in providing players for that system.

I can sympathise to an extent with not selling Dennis and Sarr; if the offers aren’t there then we can’t cash in. And this very likely hinders our ability to spend, but they sacrificed that ‘get out jail free’ card when they signed Bayo for £5m!

So we haven’t signed any HG players to help with the matchday restrictions, we haven’t signed any ball-playing CBs, we haven’t built a cohesive midfield and we haven’t signed any wingbacks. On top of that, Edwards has been given wingers that can’t be left out. It’s clear that he wanted to play 3 at the back, hence the 3-4-3.

On the evidence of two games, this system won’t work with the players we have though. So does Edwards abandon what he wanted to do (begging the question why we hired a coach, only for his team to be entirely dictated by the players he’s given) or do we soldier through and hope these players will get better at what they’re being asked to do?

I won’t be blaming Edwards for this season, no matter how disastrous. You don’t hire a skilled chef at McDonald’s and complain when he can only serve up burgers and fries.

 

This is why Watford will forever be little Watford.

Our fans crave this kind of insincere, sycophantic nonsense over success on the pitch.

If I didn't support us, I'd utterly despise us.

 

This stat has been mentioned many times, but people seem to have forgotten (despite my pointing it out before) that GT only won five of his last 17 games during the Division 2 title-winning season. I imagine if the chasing pack had been more consistent, Edwards would have won more of those final 17 games, just as we would have won more had it been required.

 

What's with people comparing Edwards to GT? There are probably billion other managers in the Pozzo era alone who would be more comparable.

Anyway, I'm definitely getting Ivic vibes with this formation.

 

Mid/late 90's and early 2000's.

The Withdean and Gillingham era - it always struck me that it was something they just did as a club and the fans respected it, respective of result or who was in charge. It was the minimum expected.

 

You must've missed the bit where I said ultimately its results and performances that matter...it was right at the very start of my post.

 

I don't really subscribe to 'if they needed more points they would have won more games' theory. They squandered at 15 point lead at the top and won the title on GD. I'm sure they would have won no more or no less than they did, regardless of what was needed. But that's another club and another situation. I see it as just an indicator.

Had Watford come out in the second half with a new plan that changed the game, I'd have been impressed, but they didn't. He just asked Pedro to sit a little deeper. It didn't really work but the domination of the first half was so severe, it really should have been a major rethink, not a little tinker. The midfield needed another body in there as well as Pedro dropping deeper. It's basic stuff really, that even the layman can spot. So it's Edward's first black mark. If I see improvements in the future, I will be happy to see he's learning and progressing, but I feel he might be one of those coaches who is wedded to one idea. When it doesn't work he's a bit lost. That's my initial impression so far.

 

I just think on the list of priorities, clapping the fans is at the very bottom.

The sort of people who it's important to are the likes of that mad woman with the home made Mazzarri out poster. Aka the criminally insane. That's who you are categorising yourself alongside.

 

I watched with a multitude of different supporters last night. Everyone said exactly the same, you will change things halftime and it will be a different game. Did he fook.
It's still beyond me how they got a point let alone another chance to be in the lead. Sorry but it was nothing short of embarrassing. Gasper should of been on at HT at the very latest with Kamara swapping for the clown Sema. Dennis too for Gosling. We literally made WBA look Brazilian.
Edwards has some questions to answer.

 

We can agree to disagree - I think building a far better bond between players/manager/club and the fans is a pretty big ingredient if we want to be better and achieve success (as many, many fans on here and elsewhere have attested to - and it’s not just the clappy, mad ones).

I think it’s a key part of getting the club back to a position where the fans can enjoy it again.

 

There's a lot of issues with the current formation, and it's clearly not RE's first choice, but this post reads like we lost both our games 3-0!

We will get overrun against the better midfields in the league, and need to rely on individual brilliance like last night.

But against the majority of the dross in this league, it'll be just fine. Most teams in this league just don't have the quality to dominate in the middle, and can't afford to leave our front three 1-on-1.

 

Performances more concerning than results, which flatter us. A 0-0 and a 0-2 would hardly have been unfair! We can't go into every game against a play-off chasing team, expecting to be overrun in midfield and get away with it. Especially as it becomes more and more obvious that's where we can be beaten.

If the squad stays exactly as it is, then we'll be fine. The front 3 get us play-offs by themselves. Edwards wi'll have to go 4-3-3 I reckon, because there aren't the players for 3 at the back, so why persist? (Which goes back to my point above. It'd make him seem more like a spokesperson than a head coach).
But if one of Sarr or Dennis go, as the club are working to do, we'll have the same issues with less "individual brilliance".

Don't want to be too negative, 4 points so far is very good. Just don't think it's sustainable without some significant improvements.

 

Don't see the similarity to Ivic by the sounds of things - two goals in two games isn't great but against two play-off chasers at least (and one we don't have a good record against - the scrappy win under QSF where Gomes had to save two penalties is the only one I remember at the Hawthorns) it's a definite improvement on just one goal against a midtable team and a relegation-fighting one (Boro and Sheff Wed). However I have yet to see a Watford game this season but am going to the Burnley game Friday night (will be a good indicator of the creativity of this team, especially if Burnley haven't changed their style much from theirs under Dyche) and will leave further comments until after then.

 

I presume you haven't seen much of them this season neither then

 

They are but in name only. Billionaire owner with a coherent long term plan is like night and day with their previous hand to mouth existence.

 

Seems like you do anyway.

 

Are they? I think they are open to it for obvious reasons but I don’t think they are pushing it.

Yes last night was poor and yes it was alarming to see us unable to get into the game. But I do think we need to accept this is a new system and new way of working - and Edwards was handed a very tough starting run of games with which to play a side still learning from him etc. If we look just as bad against Preston, Birmingham, QPR by the end of the month, then I think it’s time for concern.