Pozzo Out

I don’t think the bit I have bolded can be said with such certainty.

Gino has leveraged the club with debt up to its eyeballs. And we still don’t really know how hard the pandemic hit the club - but we all have our fears.

I don’t think there’s a queue of people willing to take on the above.

 

We’re not a good investment. Our PL status is now only extremely temporary, we have a lot of debt and a relatively small fan base. Anybody looking to buy a football club would be looking at the likes of Nottingham Forest and many others well before they got to us.

If we had stayed up last time round, learned from the mistakes and found ourselves in a similar position to a club like Palace then maybe we’d have been more attractive, but that ship has long since sailed.

 

Is it possible to find the Watford lyrics Wembley cover of (yellow or Elton John, can't remember?) by that Irish group

 

I have never been a Pozzo out person as since they have owned us we have probably has our most successful and consistent period , and I would guess that we are probably one of he top 100 clubs in the world (not that i am sure that means much).

however several things occur to me as I fume over yesterday’s travesty

if we are such a big world club and yet absolute minos in the PL, the football gulf has become so massive between the top 20 clubs in the world and the rest that’s it’s no longer really a competitive sport , no idea if true but wouldn’t be surprised if we were closer in value to a club in league 2 than we are to Man City

I am not really sure that a football club can be successful in the PL now if it’s run as a business (obviously occasional one will , but is it sustainable over time) , it really needs to be a vanity project for a multi billionaire.

in terms of the Pozzos the question should be are they running their business (which also happens to be our football club) well (in terms of business objectives which may not be the same as football objectives). Unfortunately I think the answer is no.

I am not really sure that we will ever achieve continued PL status as it’s seems inevitable that more and more large clubs will be purchase by eccentric billionaire (and I can’t see vicarage road become the Tesla stadium any time soon) , however the inability to find a manager that can translate their business ethic/objectives onto the pitch sits with them alone.

The purchasing of players that are just not good enough is down to them. Although I guess that only they know if they are purchasing what they can afford or just buying what they perceive as bargains.

The lack of club drive / focus / spirit is down to what they have created which is a yo yo club with journey men (manager / players / back room staff) who come in for one or two years and then leave. How many of the players are invested in what Watford FC is, and with our lack of status what are they playing for, they are unlikely to become the next big thing or win medals , it’s almost inevitable they turn up go through the motions and take the pay check.

Pozzos out is difficult, unless we persuade Bezos to buy us, as this is probably the best we will ever be , is this more fun than a league 1 side struggling to survive but playing with some spirit not sure , but I don’t like what we have become.

 

G

Good post and I totally get it. You appreciate the Pozzo's, but don't like what we've become under them and I think that's fair enough.

For me, it's a case of better the devil you know. Look at all the high profile clubs sitting outside the Premier League. They have not been able to achieve what we have done. Derby, Sunderland, Forest, Wednesday and the list goes on, would all swap places and owners with Watford in a heartbeat. Our recent history has been incredbible.

This is the tenth year of Pozzo ownership and we've only had one bad season (looking like two this season). But that's still a remarkable improvement on where we were as a club. Treading water, buying players like Carl ****enson and fighting to stay in the Championship.

Until the day we return to this level of club, where we're looking to stay in the Championship rather than stay in the Premier League or being one of the better teams in the Championship, I cannot ever shout for Pozzo to go.

Do I like everything they do? Of course not, I don't think anyone does. The secrecy, the managerial circus, the lack of real identity and the almost clueless firefighting strategy is extremely irritating. But I do sympathise with them in terms of finance. The Pozzo's cannot compete easily in the Premier League, because they don't have the financial resources. It all boils down to that. The Premier League is a billionaires playground, it's not a place for multi-millionaires anymore.

 

Thing is, if this was one of those cringy work training exercises or an opinion poll where they asked ‘list the top 4 things you wouldn’t want in the owner of your football club’, doesn’t your list just about nail it? Possibly only thing missing is pisspoor, but then in PL terms we are.

 

Not really, we’ll not for me anyway. When we were owned by BBB, if someone came to me and said your next owners will have all these bad traits but you will be promoted twice, spend 6 seasons in the Premier League and get to a major cup final during the next 10 years, I don’t see many fans saying no to it.

This is why I feel it’s always wise to take a step back and take a more holistic view of things when we go through difficult moments.

 

I can’t put my finger on it, but there seems to be something wrong with the ethos in the club. The players we have should be getting past Norwich, but we just don’t seem to have the belief or spirit. I mentioned in another post that it has the feeling of an unhappy workplace, but it is more nuanced than that. To get the very best out of a squad of players you need them to feel a passion or spirit that is indoctrinated from the first contact with the player. I am not sure that many players that we have recruited recently have felt a sense of belonging or any connection with the club. You get the sense that the players feel part of a system or project, rather than a club or team.

The Pozzo model may have had it’s day. At least with Xisco there seemed to be some bond or enjoyment. Unless we get a billionaire backer, our days at the top level will be very limited. Still should be beating Norwich. Dean Smith is giving them some hope (which will ultimately be crushed).

 

This is a really good point and there are those of us that are scarred by the BBB period. So to have moved away from that to a level of security the Pozzos will always have my appreciation.

That said, having to constantly defend or put up with their actions as you quite rightly listed in the op really is growing exhausting. It was tolerable when we had a plan which was working and it was the outside world not understanding, but now we seem to be falling into the basket case club category and as a fan that really hurts.

Your certainly right in better the devil you know, but surely something has to change at the top to get us an identity again?

 

Stone Island Sam with a dig at the owners in his latest tweet. Wonder if he’ll delete it. A far cry from last weeks ‘Gino Pozzo has done it again!’

 

Nor would I have said no. I’m not ungrateful. But Pozzo is looking increasingly like a busted flush and as a fan base we can’t afford to give him a free pass for former glories.

 

3 bad seasons. You are forgetting 2013/14.

 

No, I considered that season as a mediocre, run-of-the-milk season. Finished 13th and it was meh.

Any promotion season or season retained in the EPL is brilliant. A playoff season without promotion is also a successful season, but without the icing.

 

A busted flush? Not quite so sure about that. We were promoted only last season, so that’s an incredible achievement. That cannot be so undervalued.

 

Ironically, I think it started when he gave Javi a long contract instead of recognising the last few games of that season for what they represented...a 'one-system' coach whose unusual system had been sussed by other EPL coaches. He should have gone after the Cup Final and not realising that was the first sign that Pozzo had lost the requisite focus to make his methods work.

 

Not having that. That squad massively underachieved.

 

Except you have to buy a stadium and training ground (neither owned by Derby County but by the former owner). So what’s that £100 million? For your £28 million you are getting the name, obligation to meet employee and supplier contracts, player registrations and a database of supporters. Looks like you need very deep pockets long term. Derby have had three seasons in the Top division this century. Fewer than Bournemouth. Not sure how much they poured into Leicester to have achieved their recent success over the last eight years. Are Derby more likely than Forest and the two Sheffield clubs to match up to Leicester in that region?

If you are looking long term. You could say of the big North East, East and West Midlands clubs, none have had sustained top level football the way the big North West and London Clubs have.

I suspect owners realise that for most clubs there is a churn and cycle of success and failure. Long term if your goal is to earn a living from it or to win things you probably are going to fail with most clubs.

 

The stadium thing is not really an issue, Mel Morris has said he’ll sell the stadium to the new owner or give them a period of exclusivity. The cost to buy it will be factored into the overall cost for any buyer like it would be included in the price for anyone buying us. Whoever buys them will still be getting a relatively big club on the cheap. Obviously there are some downsides for any new buyer, but if any new owner has money and ambitions to get to the PL, they’ll need as much revenue as possible work within FFP, so it makes sense to look at the clubs with the biggest fan bases and work down from there. There is a reason the Saudis briefly looked at Derby when the Newcastle deal looked dead.

 

Considering the dark days of the 90s and 00s... the ground being sold to pay off debts... directors at war... close to receivers on several occasions... suppliers not being paid... etc etc I'll still take the Pozzos warts and all

Bouncing between the PL and Champ is pleasant by comparison with where this club has been in it's past

 

What use is it looking at their record collectively, when chronologically it’s clear things are going from bad to worse?

Do you not think it’s a bit of a coincidence the one bad season we’ve had is going to be very quickly followed by the second?

 

But is it getting worse? Of course I get why fans think this straight after losing 0-3 at home to Norwich, but last season we were promoted from the Championship. In any other era that would be seen as magnificent. But because it's the Pozzo's there's a shrug of the shoulders.

The Pozzo's have raised all our expectations, and this is what fans are judging them by now. They are victims of their own success and I think fans have to be a bit more understanding at how difficult it is for a group who only have wealth around the £100m mark. How about judging them against virtually every other owner we've had in the past? They stand up brilliantly against all bar Elton John.

So we were caught out when we went down 2 seasons ago. Blame does lie with them over failing to spot obvious defensive flaws, but it was genius to pick someone like Munoz who got us promote as the first time of asking.

The playing field is different now. Teams are getting serious cash injections from very wealthy owners. Everton have been given a £100m windfall from Moshiri, Southampton have new investors, as do West Ham and of course Newcastle. It's so hard to compete against that.

Now, we can only operate in the cracks, so to speak. It's purely down to a lack of finance that Watford have to operate this way. Unless there is a football savvy billionaire wanting to take us over, I think we have to appreciate the Pozzo's, accept them with all their faults and get on board with it. They are probably the best we'll ever get. Without them, see how quickly Watford fall to where they were before. It wouldn't take long I suspect.

 

How could anyone possibly argue that four seasons of comfortable survival in the PL when we didn’t set foot in the relegation zone for a single day (as well as a two cup runs, one to a semi and one to a final) followed by a whole season spent in the relegation zone that ended in relegation, then an almost certain relegation again at the very next attempt, isn’t a clear sign of things getting worse? I mean it’s not even a sign, they are factually getting worse.

 

We spent £40m on a winger for a system where we didn’t play wingers and whilst we were crying out for players in other positions. Sure, they aren’t billionaires but they aren’t smart in their transfer activity like other clubs. They also burn through the millions to pay off coaches.

Pleading poverty all the time is exactly what is wanted by those in charge.

 

But you cannot dismiss the promotion last season. It was a brilliant achievement. It's a mixed bag. It's not all bad and we're still a much better club with them in charge then we would be without them. As I say, unless a football savvy billionaire wants to buy us, then we have to be at peace with them, what they do and how they do it. It's fine with me, as ultimately our status is elevated by their association.

If we go down, which appears likely, who would bet against them getting us up again? I certainly wouldn't.

 

Me. Everything that isn’t chained to the floor will be sold and we’ll be starting again. We won’t have COVID-19 to ensure clubs aren’t willing to bid for our better players.

If we go down, that’s it for 3-5 years minimum IMO.

 

I’m not dismissing the promotion last season, but that’s an achievement they made after only three years and bettered for next five years, so that isn’t progress is it? How can being promoted be an achievement compared to simply not getting relegated and finishing higher in the pyramid? Are you saying winning the championship is more of an achievement than finishing 11th in the PL?

There is also the small fact covid obliterated the championship and enabled us to keep players we wouldn’t have in other years, so the achievement was less impressive than when they did it first time around. Do you honestly think it was brilliant compared to the last time they did it?

 

Fans were saying the same thing 2 years ago, and we bounced back immediately. If we do go down, then I'll be praying Newcastle or Everton stay up as we'd be playing for 2nd place only, but I see no reason why we won't be very strong next season in the Championship.

 

It's all relative. Promotion to the Premier League is brilliant, no matter how it's achieved.

I just don't think enough credit is given to the Pozzo's for turning Watford into a lower table Premier League/high end Championship club. That's miles better than what we were. Not sure what fans really expect.

 

Well again, chronology, context and things like trends and the direction of travel are key aren’t they.

Some people are annoyed they turned us from a comfortable mid table Premier League side, into a lower table Premier League/high end Championship club.

 

But they have raised us to a higher level than we were. This is the measure. We are a much better club because of them. Any disgruntlement is a sign of entitlement from fans, IMO.

 

I remember a few short years ago when finishing lower mid-table in the Premier League was not enough for a small but significant slice of the fanbase. There were some who bemoaned comfortable survival in QSF's season (first time round), or were extremely dissatisfied with the way things fizzled out in the league in spring 2019 when there'd been a slim chance of qualifying for Europe until the final few weeks. Four seasons without spending a single week in the relegation zone. Sitting nicely in 14th grumbling about not being 8th. I'd take that now.

 

Again, completely ignoring chronology.

And not everyone defines better by league placement, which is the point many keep missing or ignoring.

 

Another victim of the binary Pozzo or Bankruptcy fallacy. There’s a lot of them. Granada fans probably had them too.