I wonder how they view all these management changes? Do they even care? Many might quite rightly say they are the people who cause all this! Certianly with some managers like Ivic and Walter a few years back. Just used to the the merry go around prehaps - maybe happy to even be at a Premier league club and earning decent money. But someone like a Cleverley or Cathcart must have a view on it all having probably been here the longest. Even Deeney didn't say much when he left - I was expected some big interview about all our managers he had.
As far as the players are concerned - they pick up a wage end of the week, win, lose or draw. Whoever the person is telling them the tactics, formations etc is just a difference voice. They either like him or not, matters little in the grand scheme of things as they know he'll be sacked not them. As fans' it matters more to us, as if the person giving out the orders is a guy they can get on with and believe in, it can lead to improved performances and better results.
But is this true? How then do you explain clubs who do well year after year after year? At Watford, its because everything is purely transactional and short-term. Sure you get the odd player who stays on for a number of years (mainly because no one else would take them I imagine). I don't believe that the players down tools to get a manager sacked. I believe it's just that everyone knows inevitably it'll happen regardless so the high-motivation isn't there from the start. These players walk in and sign 5 year deals - but I bet most of them don't believe they will spend all 5 at WFC. Much the same with coaches - 1-2yr deals and paid off after 6 months. The only thing that can affect any of this is the owner and his way of running things. Leventhal said yesterday that those in charge are 'acutely aware' of fans feelings about the above points - but it's being said after we have just sacked another coach and brought in more transfer window guesses. So just how aware are they in reality?
The players 100% down tools to get a manager sacked. Pearson - West Ham was a complete stitch-up. Ivic - Huddersfield was a complete stitch-up. Xisco - Leeds was a complete stitch-up. Ranieri - Norwich was a complete stitch-up. It's blindingly obvious.
Wasn't the decision to sack Ivic already made well before the Huddersfield game? Slight aside, as the point is obvious, and concerning
We have broadly two types of players, players who are crap who we offer overly long contracts too for no good reason. They likely don’t care about manager changes, as they have a decent salary and a long contract with the chance to play in a league that’s probably above their ability every now and then. The issue with these players is ability, not manager turnover. Then we’ve got the players we manage to sign who are actually good and could play at a higher level than us. I would imagine they quickly become disillusioned with all the changes, they won’t necessarily down tools but will be playing for themselves to secure a move. We have little to no chance of getting these players to sign new deals if we somehow keep them long enough (Doucuoure is probably the exception) As they get near the end of the deals they’re likely to end up like Hughes/Chalobah and can’t wait to get away from the club. Basically with these better players we have a relatively short window where we have to sell them on, or it’s downhill from there.
If only the business world worked like football. I'd have tried to get rid of a fair few bosses by downing tools...
It's an interesting question (or related set of questions). I've often wondered (relating it to my own experience of bosses changing in various workplaces) - it can really change the way you feel about going to work, regardless of the money and colleagues. But as we are not players for Watford FC we can only guess ... I don't think they ever say anything publicly that is not a platitude, unless anyone has spotted anything ...
But what players actually really care about the club? If you look performance wise very little, Bachmann and his interview clearly shows zero interest, Rose given the golden ticket at a Premier club just screwd it up and threw it in the bin. The more I look at the club the more it hurts. Like many others Watford is my religion and again this current crop of hierarchy and mercenaries are making it very, very difficult to love. Yes Pozzo got us out of a massive problem but the alarming rate of decline is frightening and in all honesty going to be back in the mire sooner or later. Ok we could fluke a stay of execution but it will be the same old crap whether we survive or get relegated. We just haven't currently got enough fight in us.
That's actually a good point. I would say Deeney is one, love him or hate him, he did care about Watford overall and taking away his declining seasons he did show a lot of pride for the shirt and his big mouth on the media did get us noticed. Another couple I could possibly throw in that set is Gifton N Williams, Lloyd Doyley, Alec Chamberlain and perhaps even Holebas and Mooney. For a lot of the more recent players, it's got nothing to do with a connection to the club. If they haven't been here for x-amount of years or didn't go through the youth system, most of them probably look at a place in the Watford team as just another stepping stone in their career, and their is nothing wrong with that. As football has progressed more and more into a business over a sport, you will get less players coming through the youth ranks and making a claim to become a "club legend" nowadays. It's a shame - but that is the times we live in.
A few years ago didn't the Chelsea players down tools to get Jose the sack? The year they were in the bottom third
I'm fed up with this squad and the club in general. Change the head coach, change some players and yet the same problems crop up. The club sign players who are mentally weak or just massive arseholes. They're then let off the hook every time we have a bad patch when Gino gets rid of the head coach. Over time that has created a mentality at the club where the players have all the power and it simply has to change. Whatever happens this season Gino has to decide what Watford's philosophy is on the pitch and recruit both a head coach and players accordingly. That head coach then needs at least a season to work with the squad, I'm not going to suggest two seasons because that's never going to happen.
Bit like when they first came in I guess. Managers were generally given longer (well ok not McKinley but I presume he was supposed to be a caretaker?) It seems since Gracia who actually lasted 18 months I think we have changed at the first sign of trouble or the players kicking off. As you say almost as if the Pozzos back the players rather than those in charge.
I’m not really sure Holebas cared about Watford. He cared about winning and hated losing. He would do that in any shirt. Which is a huge lesson a lot of our players could learn. But whenever you saw them comment on him, they were always laughing and saying he was just a ‘miserable bast*rd’ - and who could blame him?
And that's exactly what we need from players. No sentimental 'I love this club, kissing the badge' bollox...very few do & nor should they, cos that club will move them on as soon as they see fit. BUT they should give their all to make sure they do not lose the match; for purely selfish, self-esteem reasons of course, but that attitude is more likely to result in an outcome that suits us all.
A lot of former pros have stated it definitely happens in their post-retirement tell-all books, interviews, etc. It's obviously difficult to impossible to prove any single performance was down to a deliberate attempt to get the coach fired, but I have no doubt that it happens.
Yeah, I didn't express what I meant very well. I meant that I don't think there's a concerted effort from the players as a collective to do it. I don't think it pre-meditated - but I think a few of them do it and thats what makes it seem like its the team en masse. Because you can't carry players at the bottom end of the table. A few players not putting the effort in more often than not leads to a bad team performance which in turn makes it look like all of them are not bothered.
Yes, it's probably down to the members of a particular clique than a squad wide decision, unless a manager is particularly and exceptionally odious.
Cannot say for sure but here is my fleeting theories. Pearson was loved at first by the players. Despite losing 2-0 at Anfield in his first game (or was that Mullins?) we played well and probably could of won or even drawn. We got a spirited 0-0 against Palarse where we really should of had a penalty (I remember Deeney put in a headlock in injury time). Most of the early performances were a real surprise - hammering Villa 3-0, beating high flying Wolves 2-1 and those outstanding wins over Muff and Liverpool. After the Covid break, the Leicester performance was a lucky draw which had followed a poor loss at Palarse. You could blame the Pandemic - lack of football for so long, tired players, no fans etc. but we seemed to really go off the boil after that. Losses at home to Southampton and getting stuffed (again) by Wet Spam more or less confirmed our relegation. I do think the alleged "punch" to Masina at Half Time in the West Ham game was a big part of it. Ivic was a very difficult guy to read. He seemed very stern, and I feel the players didn't like his methods and perhaps felt they were being pushed too hard in a league below the previous one. Our results under Ivic were not terrible but the performances were stale and boring. Huddersfield was the final nail in the coffin for him. Xisco was a breath of fresh air and I think the players really bought into his tactics and sessions. Up until the Coventry draw which of course saw Captain Marvel injured, we had some very up and down performances (losing at home to QPR was a real tough one to take). Promotion obviously excelled his connection to the players we had then, and it has been discussed here many a time that he wasn't ready for the PL. It showed. I do not feel the players got him sacked per say - but it does seem very little effort was put into games after the Norwich win. Uncle C - cannot really comment on this - it's too early to make a conclusion.
I don’t think the players downed their tools for Pearson at all. Why would they down their tools in a game against West Ham which could have kept us up if we won? I think it was pretty well documented that the reason we were so poor on our return after that long Covid break was that the team barely had any training in between the Liverpool game and the Leicester game. Pearson was out for a long time, ill because of covid and it was clear that the players weren’t fit or prepared for the return. Ultimately Pearson was sacked because Gino panicked and thought Hayden Mullins was the man to create a new manager bounce… in 2 games.
I don’t think that was the case at all. I think it’s pretty clear something went on that caused him to be sacked with two games to go. It’s probably in neither parties interest for it to come out. Pearson would’ve been on a big bonus to keep us up so it would’ve obviously been in his best to do so and for Gino to let him, but something prevented that being viable. Gino is not that daft that he’d sack Pearson for a new manager bounce from Hayden bloody Mullins! That’s just absurd. Im not defending Gino taking him out with two games to go by the way, whatever caused it was obviously ridiculous for that to end up being the outcome, but it’s ludicrous to think it was purely football based.
It's pretty clear that some of the MU players were very happy to lose to us for the long term good it would do them and the club in sealing the fate of OGS (see the De Gea post match interview !). We could not have picked a better time to play them.
And he only got the job in the first place as the players absolutely hated Mourinho and miraculously started playing for OGS once he was sacked. The spat between Mournho and Shaw is still going on now, and Pogba wasn’t shy to make his feelings known about Jose getting sacked either. That is probably an extreme example but it’s clear players can and do hate some managers and stop playing for them.
It's the way of the football world. The only people who stick around and show loyalty are the supporters and they get taken for granted because of this. The likes of a "Mark Noble" are getting rarer and rarer. A true story told direct to me by the coach who spoke to him, when Javi Gracia got his new contract, another member of coaching staff congratulated him on the training pitch. His answer was "It means nothing really, just that they have to pay me more when they sack me".
Sport is different from other supports if work. There are however similarities. There were all those urban myths that you would not buy a car built on a Monday from the Halewood car plant if Liverpool lost, because workers on the line we’re fed up and lacked application. By Tuesday they had worked it out of their psyche. Schools can go from outstanding to barely adequate with the change of Headteacher. Leadership can very quickly impact mood, group cohesion and effort, engagement and participation with achieving the best outcomes. So relatively small groups of people who have small windows of time to be effective - 40 matches a year compared to say 240 business days for other workers - can quickly be affected by leadership and attachment to the common purpose. Dip a bit and it all starts to unravel. The good news is that good Leadership can very quickly pull it round.
I would be dubious about anything from Halewood, but the Everton line has had a massive capital investment and the wheels have still fallen off
I always heard it was Friday afternoon cars that were ****? Mind you back in the day if you were buying anything British like Leyland I don’t think it mattered in the grand scheme of things.
