Israel And Hamas At War

Discussion in 'Politics 2.0' started by bash, Oct 8, 2023.

  1. That must have taken a serious trawl. In the meantime, 10 months of constant Palestinian death have passed. So yes, I have changed my tune. What's your excuse other than "I'm Jewish, My Country Right or Wrong"?
     
  2. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    well apart from the fact that the job of eliminating Hamas and the direct threat to Israel’s safety, the fact that 10 months later the hostages taken on Oct 7th are still being kept in Gaza and the fact that hundreds of rockets are still being fired into Israel almost daily from Lebanon…
     
  3. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    So it’s had limited success?

    The problem is that everyone got war, not just Hamas. Maps of the bombing show that almost every area in Gaza has been bombed at some point. It’s like a nearly completed game of battleships.

    No one can deny that Gazan civilians have been targeted, that there has been mistreatment of detainees and there are dangerous shortages of food and medicine.

    Hamas wanted war, for sure and Israel has given them exactly what they wanted, with the prospect of a wider war in the region, which they would relish. Was that wise?

    Would you have accepted this price on Oct 8? For limited success? How much more?
     
  4. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    depends on your definition of success. Multiple tunnels which were used to move rockets from Egypt into Gaza have been found and destroyed. Multiple senior Hamas militant targets have been eliminated. Has enough been done to stop a future Oct 7th? I don’t have that knowledge

    but if you reread from page 1 much of the outcome was predicted. The geography and Hamas tactics, alongside IDF mistakes, have led to large number of fatalities but difficult to know how many of those are combatants as a total number is always given

    my hope is still as it was on Oct 8th that a more moderate leadership is put in place in Gaza which, alongside Israel and global support, can help to build the region into an area that accept their neighbours

    my fear is that Iran is using all of this as a game to demonstrate power and will lead to a full on war with Lebanon

    this is a war for existence not for land
     
  5. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Exactly. And it's why Israel needed to find a different response to the one they have chosen.

    Civilians on both sides have lost so much for what? I think the extremists, again, on both sides, are the only winners so far.
     
    lm_wfc likes this.
  6. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Sure, it was never going to be easy nor would have a more patient response been without cost. But this is extreme. I think you show you are uncomfortable with it when you claim you don’t know how many combatants have been killed. It’s pretty clear that most deaths have been civilians and Gaza has become Hades.

    It’s also hard not to characterise this as a war for land. Israel may not covet Gaza but that’s only because Hamas makes it too dangerous. On the other flank, land is being taken daily. The overall Palestinian experience is that their home is shrinking. For them, it’s become a war for land and existence.

    For Israel, it is also existential but not simply because it has dangerous enemies who wish to destroy it. It now faces the prospect of unending conflict as a super militarised (and illiberal) state. That will be completely at the gift of the US and its allies to continue to pump ordnance into it. That has to continue in the face of Western public opinion and the threat of regional conflict. Its allies may not be game for that.
     
  7. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    Egypt occupied Gaza until 1967 and treated it as a controlled territory. Israel seized the land post the 1967 war when Egypt tried to obliterate Israel. The geography made it an important defensive area in order to repel any future attacks. Israel withdrew from the entire strip in 2005 in a failed attempt to create peace. Post 2007, when Hamas were elected (and have never held an election since), Israel has been regularly attacked by terrorists in the region whose aim was to capture Israel. It is not Israel's intention, in my view, to reoccupy Gaza as long as it can guarantee peace. Which can never be negotiated with Hamas

    In terms of the "other side" the West Bank is what was known as Judea and Samaria and was also annexed post 1967. The relationship with Israel, although not best buddies, is far less problematic due to the relative moderate leadership in PA. The two regions are separate issues

    I have sat on a beach in Tel Aviv. Sitting next to Jews, Arabs, Christians, Druze etc all of whom are happily going about their business. The 2.1m Arabs living in Israel are happy to be there. This is how Israelis of all backgrounds could live with their neighbours if a terror organisation didn't live within
     
  8. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    General question based on my lack of middle east knowledge... When you say Israel at war with Lebanon, are you talking just Hezbollah or other groups and the Lebanese government itself?
     
  9. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    L
    A more moderate leadership in both Gaza & Israel, surely? Leaderships for both that are driven by a desire to do what is in the best interests of their citizens rather than personal survival ‘in power.’
    I’m afraid to say it’s not about ‘land’ is a little disingenuous when an aggressively nationalist ‘settler movement’ is facilitated by state agencies to steal more land from Palestinians in the West Bank with the avowed intent of establishing the ‘historic borders of Israel’. At the very least the movement will negatively impact upon any possible creation of a contiguously coherent Palestinian State there. Do you find Netanyahu’s assurances that the perpetrators of the recent torching and murder in Jit will be brought to justice? When this sort of action has been allowed to continue for so long? It’s so unfortunate, isn’t it, that the IDF always seem to get there just too late?
    On the news yesterday a Palestinian teenager (about 15 I think) stated that nowhere is safe for them because all it needed was for a single ‘wanted person’ to enter a building occupied by hundreds of innocent refugees to lead to Israel bombing the entire building and then justifying the action.
    The whole hostage situation is appalling and shows exactly what Hamas is; but I am struggling to be convinced that an exchange rate of almost 40:1 continues to be proportionate.
    October 7th happened partly due to serious (if not ‘incredible’) failures of intelligence on Netanyahu’s watch. Seeing the playing out of his government’s revenge is uncomfortable in the extreme.
     
  10. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    Hezbollah who are funded and controlled by Iran. Most people in Lebanon don’t support Hezbollah or a war
     
  11. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    Thanks. So a war with Hezbollah rather than Lebanon? Obviously Iran will be beefing them up to be their proxy.

    Assume Israel would be only targeting Hezbollah and their infrastructure in this case?
     
  12. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    we are in agreement that I would like to see a replacement of both Hamas and Netanyahu. His support pre war had totally evaporated but since Oct 7th his tough stance on Hamas has gained him popularity again. But he’s not for me. We agree that there were obviously huge failings in intelligence leading up to Oct 7th but we’ve covered that

    I cannot agree that Gaza, West Bank, Northern Territories are all one conversation. Israel’s relationship with Lebanon, its peace treaty with Egypt (until it discovered all of the tunnels linking Egypt and Gaza), the West Bank and Jerusalem, the terror factions in Gaza, Iran et al are all separate issues that get confused when linked. Do I believe West Bank was Judea, yes. Does that history make one bit of difference when dealing with the current situation, no. So, as we have discussed in countless situations, I believe the settlements in the WB to be inflammatory. But stopping settlements won’t create peace in Gaza. Or stop the rockets being fired from Lebanon

    as for 40:1 the numbers are supplied by the terrorists. And I have no idea on the truth nor do I know how many were ordinary citizens. Innocent death is abhorrent in any war.
     
  13. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Which is where it could become very serious. One side’s ‘infrastructure’ is another’s ‘refugee centre’.
     
  14. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    Hezbollah aren’t Hamas. They are a fully functioning trained army with weaponry supplied by Iran and probably stronger than the Lebanese army. I would imagine the IDF would target Hezbollah armed depots unless they believed that they were being backed by the government (Hezbollah have seats in the government) at which point I would guess that Israel would compile strategic targets such as oil fields to disrupt an already precarious economy
     
  15. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    only if the “side” decides to house refugees in the same place that they fire the rockets when attacking but I get your point
     
  16. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I fully understand your separation of the various theatres, although many players getting dragged into this (eg Huthis) are making a very direct link between all of them. In an earlier post you yourself made a comment wherein ‘Hezbollah in Lebanon’ followed on from Gaza, so the distinctions are becoming very blurred. It’s not a question of what links people should make, but the links they actually do make.
    Stopping the settlements would immediately remove one (crucial) plank of the anti-Israel coalition’s self-justification to world opinion; it would not have an immediate and dramatic effect, fair enough, but it could prove to be an important starting point.
    On the issue of 40:1, maybe the exact ratio is less important than the fact that the pictures of the devastation and terrible scenes indicate that the ratio is still massively disproportionate.
     
  17. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    unfortunately Israel has learnt the hard way that offering incentives doesn’t end in peace when dealing with leaderships that don’t want you to exist in the first place.

    Israel handed the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt only to find, in the recent incursion, the amount of tunnels linking Egyptian territory to Gaza to transport rockets which the Egyptian govt would be fully aware of

    Israel withdrew from Gaza in the hope of creating ongoing peace but that was the worst decision to make

    so everybody keeps telling Israel to give up this and give up that but it’s dealing with factions that don’t want peace
     
  18. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    This is the argument that won't go away and doesn't really seem to come up.

    What is the relationship between the Lebanese government and Hezbollah? Assume that they have to leave them to it if they are that well armed, or it's civil war?
     
  19. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    the Lebanese govt is very weak and would find it impossible to reign in Hezbollah even if they wanted to

    the Lebanese population have a divided opinion of them dependent on your religion and whether you live in urban or outside areas. They lost popularity votes after supporting Assad
     
  20. Yeah, but Hamas nearby...

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/18/family-killed-israeli-strike-gaza

    Among those killed was Sami Jawad al-Ejlah, a wholesaler who coordinated with the Israeli military to bring meat and fish to Gaza. The dead also included his two wives, 11 of their children aged two to 22, the children’s grandmother and three other relatives, according to a list provided by the hospital.

    Omar al-Dreemli, a relative, said: “We are in the morgue seeing indescribable scenes of limbs and severed heads and children who are dismembered.”
     
  21. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Conservatives in uproar over the Government’s decision to withdraw some export licences to Israel.

    IMG_6030.jpeg

    Has the UK, has Labour, betrayed Israel? After nearly a year of little criticism in the face of mass civilian casualties, mistreatment of detainees and unfettered military assistance?

    Is being an ally always about unconditional support?

    Edit. Clearly Margaret Thatcher thought not when she suspended arms sales to Israel when it invaded Lebanon in 1982. There is nothing unprecedented in this latest move.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/britains-anger-with-israel-over-1982-lebanon-war-xyspm3gx
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2024
  22. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    probably because it’s political nonsense to appease those baying for Israel’s eradication

    for reference Israel does not buy any arms in the UK and defence related purchases are of minor components that can easily be bought elsewhere. So it’s a symbolic gesture

    meanwhile Israel is UKs third largest supplier of military hardware and one of its most important allies for intelligence sharing.

    to announce this within moments of the discovery that the cuddly bunch Hamas had slaughtered hostages in the tunnels was poor timing at best
     
  23. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Yes, it’s largely symbolic and as for the timing, it’s the first day that Parliament was back.

    I don’t think it’s right to label anyone with a concern about the slaughter as ‘baying for Israel’s eradication.’ Moreover, Israel cannot be said to be friendless on Labour’s front bench.

    Nor is it a gesture that Israel should simply ignore. Its international standing has plummeted, it faces war on all fronts and there has been little progress in getting the hostages home, to outrage back in Israel.
     
  24. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    Israel has never really given a monkeys about its international standing. It knows that it lost the media war back in the 60s when it turned in the public’s eyes from David to Goliath. It knows that the majority of the world would rather it didn’t exist. It knows that, whilst Hamas leaders continue to get rich from the ongoing war, peace is never going to happen so elimination of Hamas, at any price, is the only route

    as for Israel, it’s left v right. The left want to prioritise the hostage return but at the sacrifice of Israel’s future security. The right want to guarantee Israel’s security even if that sacrifices the hostages.

    At a time when Iran is flexing its global muscle it’s interesting to see who supports those on the frontline
     
  25. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

  26. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    One thing in this post that is demonstrably true is the phrase ‘at any price’. We are seeing that unfold before our eyes.
    I also fear that the belief that destroying Hamas will solve the issue is extremely naive.
     
  27. Israel has dropped almost 80,000 tons of explosives - this means that Israel has dropped about 36 kilograms of explosives on Gaza for every man, woman, and child. Each red dot shows a bombed place in Gaza.

    [​IMG]
     
    lm_wfc likes this.
  28. Mavu

    Mavu Academy Graduate


    or 1kg for every 4.5m2 of land...
     
  29. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    source? Or is that from Twitter or from a Hamas “official” circular (the same organisation that murdered 6 hostages in cold blood as they were about to be rescued and have been found to be constantly lying about numbers)?
     
  30. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    It’s from the UN’s satellite survey, it’s ‘comprehensive damage assessment.’

    This link is for May’s update.
    https://unosat.org/products/3861

    I don’t think this should be any surprise. It’s a small area that has been under bombardment from area to area for around 10 months with the Israeli Government telling the World there are tunnels and HAMAS in every location. It would follow that they have bombed every location.

    The latest deflection is today’s report into ‘BBC bias’ from an Israeli lawyer. That made the Telegraph front page as if it was from an impartial source.

    BBC reporters have their faults but they also set an undeniable standard, which utterly ***** on anything that comes out of the Telegraph. This is trying to smear objective reporting because the reality is highly unpalatable to view.
     
  31. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn First Team

    Well worth seeking out the film Isrealism to see where a certain poster on here is coming from. I'm very interested in what the film-makers produce/are producing in light of the events of 7th Oct.

    Simone Zimmerman had a very bright future in the Biden/Democrat administration - until she was "Corbynned".
     
    Ghost of Barry Endean likes this.
  32. Well, now you've got the source (obviously not expecting it) have you any further comments to back up your unconditional support? Is there anything the IDF could do to shake it? And by the way, your new buddy would probably be chanting "Jews will not replace us" if it was on the other side of the Atlantic.
     
  33. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    just try rereading this thread. I have always maintained that Hamas instigated this by crossing the “line” on October 7th. Firing in excess of 25,000 rockets from Gaza into Israel. More coming from Lebanon into northern Israel. Housing military hardware in schools and hospitals. Creating a labyrinth of 300 miles of tunnels underneath Gaza to smuggle Iranian military hardware in and out of Egypt. The entry to these tunnels emanating from family homes. The tunnels being used to hide Hamas terrorists and hostages rather then protecting their own people. This is war and any deaths to innocent people is sad but this wouldn’t have happened without the occurrence of October 7th


    “We did not choose to be in a war that takes us from our homes, [takes] the lives of loved ones, and puts our lives in a death game that we knew nothing about,” says Bisan Nateel, a youth organizer for a local Gaza nongovernmental organization.

    “Hamas didn’t warn us or give any instructions to protect or help people. I don’t know what they were thinking or what they expected people to do, but this is unacceptable for everyone in Gaza,” says Walid, an aid worker in central Gaza who declined to use his full name. “I feel that Hamas gambled with our lives at stake, and lost.”

    Rafaat Naim, a Gaza businessman and former member of the Palestine Chamber of Commerce, says prior to the war, support for Hamas among Gaza residents was already limited. “Hamas’ popularity in the Gaza Strip was waning, due to its governance failures [and] misallocation of funds,” he says. “The devastating impact of the conflict further entrenched this sentiment.”
     
  34. Halfwayline

    Halfwayline Reservist

    you feel about the Telegraph how I feel about the Guardian…
     
  35. Yes. Hamas started it all, and have not a jot of care fore the residents of Gaza. But that does not exonerate Israel, or more particularly Netanyahu and IDF, for their response, which you seem to think is both necessary and justified. Like I have said many times (and you have not responded) there is no way the IDF soldiers as a whole (there will always be psychopathic exceptions) would, if they had a terrorist in their sights but there was a child or an old woman in the line of fire, pull the trigger. But when they are removed from the in-your-face reality by dint of being in a fighter bomber, at the screen of a drone or in an artillery battery, they have no problem whatsoever with a Palestinian father shovelling up the bits of his little girl.
     

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