Fair enough. This is an interesting chart found on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election. Opinion polling for the next United Kingdom general election Two things stand out. Firstly that if Labour can't overtake the Conservatives during such a torrid couple of years for the country then when will they? Secondly, I'm quite surprised at how far behind is any credible alternative to the big two. It will be interesting to see how the public feel after both have finished their conferences.
Well it demonstrates that, despite a number of problems, many who voted for the Tories in 2019 are still happy with that choice. Labour haven’t yet grasped the imagination of enough people to overtake that huge lead. For Labour the polls don’t really matter at this moment anything like as much as getting together a credible idea. That could be around competence. Even many Tory voters would concede that it’s not a terribly statesman like show right now. Starmer’s key promise yesterday was to be a serious alternative, a competent and talented leader in contrast to Johnson’s apparently haphazard approach. That may get increasing traction if shortages continue. As for the other parties, why would anyone vote for them? No one feels the UK Greens are a party of Government in waiting, the Lib Dems simply Cameron like Tories and the real Tories are pretty much UKIP now. Only in the devolved nations is there a real alternative. So England remains party of capital vs party of organised labour even if both sides appear to forget their lines sometimes.
They are the only two who will ever be in power, and currently it is a choice between getting kicked or punched. They are both utterly hopeless in different ways. Quite how anyone can defend one over the other is beyond me, though some people are as tribal about politics as they are football. My Mother in Law recently told me "I've always voted conservative and always will". Why anyone would hold that view is beyond me. Both parties are self serving and useless, if more people made noise about that rather than staying blindly loyal to one or the other then it might drive change.
Worth bookmarking this and checking it frequently: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ De Pfeffel's disapproval rating is currently 55% (highest it's been was 57%) suggests that party loyalty is playing a great role in that voting intention graph. Next couple of weeks should be 'interesting' (number wise) with the ending of the furlough scheme today... These are very thorough and focus on the 'Red Wall': https://www.jlpartners.co.uk/red-wall
Thing is though that they represent fundamental interests, fundamental structures of society. They sometimes forget their lines sure, but strip it down its explicable. You could get rid of both parties and the same politics would re-emerge under different names.
It's not that people are happy with the Tories, it's that there is no credible alternative. All labour have offered is the results of what they want to do, but have no detail about how they will do it. Starmer's leadership lacks substance. People want to vote for an alternative but Labour are less trusted with the economy than the Tories and until they convince the electorate thay have real plans and a tax policy that will actually work and pay for what they want to do, the public will not trust them. Starmer says they won't enter an election without solid plans again, I hope that is the case because we need something better than the current government and no other party stands a cat in hells chance of getting close.
Spot on. If you only ever vote for one party and will always vote for that party, you're very much part of the problem.
But what is it about the current government that's credible? If what you have is already not working, not being willing to try something else because you're afraid it might be worse is a losing mentality. If you try something else and it doesn't work, you pivot again and keep searching until you get it right. When you're already losing, sticking with what you have just guarantees you'll continue to lose forever. If nothing else, voting the other way will force a rethink and a clear out of the currently in-power lot, which is clearly sorely needed at this point. The UK's FPTP system has a lot to answer for.
What exactly is it that the Tories have done to make the Country a better place in the last 11 years?
The current isn't credible. The alternatives are less credible and history shows a huge economy risk. Labour need a credible costed plan. Simply crapping on the Tories is useless. When the choice is a **** sandwich or an artisan **** sandwich that costs 10x as much and makes you bankrupt the cheap one wins.
Zero. More tax. Debt still out of control. Brexit (ffs). Covid blunders. More regulation. Useless. And obviously I am a natural Tory voter.
What has either party ever done to improve the lot of a significant proportion of the population? Apart from founding the NHS I can't think of anything. Of course the list of the ways they've made people's lives worse is endless.
The most disappointing thing to happen this week was the unions blocking PR at the LP Conference. The *****.
There is nothing to stop a coalition government other than that the Tories were overwhelmingly more popular last time. If that sounds odd, what I mean by this is maybe centrists want to think twice about trashing Labour as unelectable when austerity, Johnson and Brexit are the choices. Idiotically they thought they could replace it with their awful politics. Politics that most every working class person was telling them was not for them. There is always the prospect of an alliance of other parties to keep the Tories out, but not when such tactics play out. So why on Earth would Labour give up its advantage to them?
when labour is saying white working class men are bad there is no credible alternative. And they are saying that out loud. The party needs to split I think and that will Take time
That’s quite a claim. Give us an example. Is this also being said by the white working class men in the party? Or is it just being said by people who usually like to say black and Asian men are bad?
Not really no. Brexit was leaving the EU to be able to self govern, to give more freedom to be able to do things quicker and more tailored for the country, rather than be slowed and neutered by the hugely exoensive EU juggernaut. How the country is governed to do this was a separate issue that is and always has been determined by a general election. Brexit was the decision to give more weight and power to those general elections. But please don't drag this off topic based on a petty bias about how someone supported an unconnected subject. This place has got a second and likely final chance. I'm referring to, amongst other quotes: "Education is so important I am tempted to say it three times … Labour will launch the most ambitious school improvement plan in a generation." so we'll improve it but detail, how? how are you going to pay for it? What's the plan? Ambitious? What does that mean? nothing, it's just words until there's something to back it up. "The one thing about Boris Johnson that offends everything I stand for is his assumption that the rules don’t apply to him … I don’t think Boris Johnson is a bad man. I think he is a trivial man. I think he’s a showman with nothing left to show. I think he’s a trickster who has performed his one trick." He went on to call him a tool. Probably fair comment but it was infantile and unhelpful. Basically Insulting and an "I'm better than you" attitude, but why? How are you better, policies man policies not soundbites and rhetoric. If anything Boris doesn't appear to have thrown and insult at him, That actually makes Boris better than Starmer? Not statesman like in the least. Chuck an insult at Kim Jong Un when your PM and see how that works out. "If you go outside and walk along the seafront, it won’t be long before you come to a petrol station which has no fuel. Level up? You can’t even fill up!" Not funny. People are suffering, it was a cheap jibe. Why did the crisis happen? in part, irresponsible media generating the stories and promoting fear without actually addressing the issue in the industry. Yes there is an issue with not employing cheap foreign labour but why should we have to? The pay has been too low and the workforce has been understaffed for a decade or more. The government has been slow to react and provide HGV testing at a level required but to be honest they have had a crisis on their hands recently. It was a typical Starmer Labour Speech. No substance just cheap jibes and we will do better without having an idea or detail about how to actually do it or pay for it. It was an opposition speech, not a bid for leadership and control speech. It's sad because we need a strong leader with a vision of how to take this country forward. Starmer is just keeping the seat warm, but the worrying thing is there's no one to take over from him. Labour should be streets ahead in the polls given the quality of the current government and their car crash to car crash perfromace of late but they're not. Why? because the public have no confidence that Labour will be better. Labour have serious issues and Starmer shows no prospects of being able to solve those issues. I want to vote for them, I want to vote for anyone other than the current government, for god's sake I voted for a chap with a bucket on his head last time as a protest.
Ahem. You are accusing @Steve Leo Beleck of taking the issue off topic, while at the same time banging on about Labour on the Tory thread.
I take your point, but it was the natural progression of the discussion. Dragging a separate topic in to throw shade (based on his perception of my thinking) of perfectly rational discussion whilst dodging the topic the discussion has naturally progressed to and avoiding the points I raised. It was however yourself in the second sentence of post #5 that started the drift to Labour criticism. Your thread, your rules I spose. Tories, they're are **** aren't they.
Threads will inevitably digress. I think Brexit talk is inevitable on the Tory thread too. They are literally ‘The Brexit Party’ now.
Agreed as part of the topic of discussion yes. But not in the way it was done here, "you voted brexit which I disagree with whatever you've said I'm going to ignore because you position was invalid." I tried to explain why bringing it up as a counter to my point was not correct, I tried to detail further why I have the opinion I do on the conference speech with examples. As usual the detail gets lost in the petty rivalry. It was trying to get it back on topic with my post explaining people's support of the Tories, the thread drift to Labour was in response to queries about my posts and why I hold that opinion. In the interest of preserving the thread topic I'll shut up about the drift.
referring to the two many white male hands going up quote reported in the press from conference. To be honest that’s the only thing I heard about conference as haven’t paid much attention. If that’s all I hear I’d presume others have got the same message
So for a start no one said ‘working class’ that’s an invention. Second it’s just fluff. He said a thing clumsily. He said himself his dad is white. Set against the people living from foodbanks having their universal credit cut while energy costs soar, this is a nothing and that’s the reason the Telegraph and GB News concentrate on such tittle-tattle, to divide us and distract from the disaster happening around us.
that’s may all be true. I’m talking about the optics I have been given by the press. And others would have picked up that
Labour was set up as a party of the working people. it has lost elections and will lose more while it is viewed by its core demographic as anti them. Ie: the loss of the red wall. that poor northern working class folk view the conservatives, the bloody tories as a better fit for them should be sounding much bigger alarm bells
It does, it’s a disaster of Labour’s own making, but this is the Tory thread. There’s a Labour thread for their ineptness. Plenty of flack to throw at the Tories on this one.
Is it worrying for Labour when a thread to discuss Tories drifts to discussing how **** Labour are. Let's see what comes of the conference. Rishi is already getting a hammering from the press for the end of the universal credit top up, yet also getting a hammering for raising taxes.
