F1/ Formula E/ Motorsport Thread

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by hornmeister, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. scummybear

    scummybear Reservist

    But Mercedes had a few chances to pit Hamilton earlier in the race, the reason he was on 40 lap old hards was because of their strategy which had given him that comfortable lead. It goes both ways, if you play the long game with tyres you risk exactly this happening. A bit like how Norris gambled on slicks a few races back and threw away a win. Sometimes the safe strategy doesn't work out.
     
  2. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    It only didn’t work out because the race director engineered a perfect scenario for Max to win. If everything was done within the rules, Lewis wins, and this is what Mercedes based their pit stop decisions on. The only thing that stopped him winning was a bizarre resetting of the race, which didn’t comply with FIA rules, to massively favour Max.

    From the position which Masi created, the only fair thing to have done was to red flag, which would have given Lewis a new set of tyres. The start point from there on would have been a lot fairer and would have given the dramatic last lap race Masi so desperately craved. All his decision did was to hand Verstappen a title he was never going to win in any other way.

    This is as close to race fixing as you’ll ever see.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2021
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  3. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Super Max, Max, Max
     
  4. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    You can't be serious :rolleyes:
     
  5. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    If I was Hamilton or Mercedes I'd be walking away from the sport unless there's promises of drastic rule changes to ensure this never happens again. Masi has to go, as does the ability for teams to lobby the race director during the event.

    As I understand the rules on a safety car restart:
    1. you let all the cars un-lap themselves then restart the race(usual on a dry track) . Likely Lewis would have won under safety car. Not preferable as a spectacle but consistent with previous events.
    2. Or you retain the track positions with the back markers in the mix (usual if track conditions are not favorable and I suppose 1 lap to go could be considered as such). There is an argument that this could have been done, would have given Max a lap and waved blues to overtake the back markers and Hamilton. I'd say 50/50 on the result there. The only fair way to "let them race".
    It's the race directors decision for either of those, not to make a half arsed / changed decision because there is only one lap to go and have a mixture of both.

    What happened is Max was gifted a pit stop, 11 seconds and free back marker overtakes. He needed that as well as an earlier helping hand from Perez, to win the championship, not to mention a scant regard for safety in this and races running up to this. What ever happens in the long run, can Max really celebrate? He was not the better man. The result should stand but F1 needs to sort it's **** out. The rules need simplification.
     
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  6. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    I agree with most of what you said HM, but not with your opinion that the result should stand!!! Yes it would be a bit of a mess if the title was taken away from MV and awarded to LH by the courts, but it would be the right decision.

    How can the World Title be down to the whim of one person, it should not be and hopefully it won't be when Mercedes win their case even if they have to take it to the highest court of law.
     
  7. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    The more time passes the more this looks like a complete stitch up. I just watched it back again on Sky News and it's setup completely for a red bull win the moment that Williams crashed. I bet the race directors were high fiving that right then. How can you call it racing when one driver has an arm tied behind his back? Either red flag it or safety car to the end.

    Much as I dislike Hamilton it's a farcical and tainted win for Max, and in my mind always will be.
    F1 needs to sort it's sh*t out, and the first move should be to stop team principles communicating with race directors during the race.
     
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  8. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

    I don’t watch F1 so I’m not familiar with the rules but I’ve obviously been seeing all the headlines so read the BBC’s account of the race. Even to an ignoramus like myself, it is clear that the interpretation of the rules by the race director (I think that’s what he’s called?) in terms of the lapped cars was bizarre. So my question to you lot who do follow F1 is why would he do that? What’s in it for F1 to apparently favour Red Bull at the 11th hour of the race? To make the end more exciting?
     
  9. Lewis / Mercedes have dominated the last 8 years.

    That doesn't suit the people who own the sport. They bought it for $4.6B and need revenue to service that debt.

    Lots of different champions grows the fan base and creates interest.
     
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  10. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    What lat_tempesta said. My completely unbiased view is that they didn't want such an exciting and close season to end with a whimper, (following the safety car to victory with millions of brand new viewers would have been a PR disaster). The race director also had both team principles in his ear shouting at him for what they wanted. Massive pressure and no time to make the right decision led to that farce. In hindsight, the best decision would have been a red flag, let Hamilton pit for fresh soft tyres and have them do a 3/4 lap sprint, winner takes all.

    If that had happened Max would have surely taken Lewis out which would have ended just as badly as ending it with a safety car, but it would have been much better to see.
     
  11. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I’m no expert, but surely the main problem here is that, when a safety car is deployed the time advantage a driver has built up is negated, even though his position cannot be lost. I understand the need for safety procedures but it means that, when a back marker crashes, all the tactical decisions that a team has made throughout the race are meaningless or even detrimental, as in this case. The sport needs to find a way to maintain those time advantages when the race is restarted.
     
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  12. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    Exactly that. In Masi's defence the decision had to be made in seconds with whinger spice shouting in his earhole. The decision was wrong. But I can understand why it happened.
     
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  13. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    The virtual safety car was introduced for exactly this scenario. Gaps maintained, but speed reduced.
     
  14. Guy

    Guy Squad Player

    Think rules need to be looked
     
  15. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Confused by this.

    You’ve stated what happened was a farce (correctly). But then stated the better thing to do was to have a situation where Verstappen would have taken Hamilton out - surely that’s just as farcical?
     
  16. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Not exactly, I said the better option was a 3/4 lap sprint with similar tyres. The outcome was an uneducated guess.
     
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  17. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Yes, I think this would have been a better outcome. I can understand the thinking that Massi had when he wanted the race to finish competitively on the track but I think he panicked in the moment and came up with the wrong answer.

    In terms of justice, I think finishing the race behind the safety car would have been the correct outcome as Hamilton's lead was unassailable at the time of Latifi's crash. He deserved to win the race. But I can see why the powers that be would have seen it as a damp squib ending that would have probably turned off the casual viewer.
     
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  18. Irishorn

    Irishorn Gael Force

    Agree with almost all of your points here, but what prompts your dislike of Hamilton? He is a multiple world champion from up the road. He has worked hard to get to the top and is doing a good job to stay there. He is an advocate for equality. A positive role model for minorities, in a sport (or entertainment industry) that falls shockingly short on diversity. Was incredibly gracious yesterday, following one of the greatest swindles in sporting history. Some people are cranky about his tax exile situation, but we need to be aware that so many famous and wealthy British people have chosen to by-pass tax rules whether living in the Country or not. Lewis seems to be more harshly judged on that issue and other issues than other British stars. I have the utmost respect for him, and I am not British.
     
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  19. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Yes he’s British - and undoubtedly incredible at what he does. But I’ve always found there to be an ‘Americanism’ to Hamilton which I think turns people off him, rightly or wrongly.

    I find him somewhat stage-managed in the way that Anthony Joshua is and at times he comes across at maybe someone who isn’t quite being who they really are underneath all the fame etc. I think many of the worlds best footballers fall into the same bracket as well personally.
     
  20. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    I didn’t want the race to end under safety car conditions. I wanted to see a competitive last lap and I like drama in sport.

    Safety cars are part and parcel of racing, and sometimes give small teams the chance of a decent finish. The stewards should have immediately called for a safety car rather than a VSC, but it could be argued tried to avoid calling for one straight away to appease Mercedes.

    The issue however of asking for just the cars between Max and Lewis to overtake, as there is not enough time for overtaken cars to go past ahead of the line, is a blatant breaking of the rules to manufacture a dramatic one on one fight.

    It’s completely against the spirit of fairness and the wording of the rules, and makes a mockery of the result to one of the most dramatic and hard fought F1 seasons ever. It was an absolute stitch up, and there was absolutely nothing Lewis could have done.

    They should have stuck with their own rules. Started the race without asking lapped drivers to overtake, with immediate blue flags. Lapped drivers would have jumped out of the way given the gravity of the situation and I believe Max could have caught Lewis by turn 6. That would have been a fair, interesting fight that complied with the rules.

    If Lewis was overtaken, everyone would have taken their hats off to Max as a deserved champion.
     
  21. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    I don't quite buy into the theories that it was fixed for Verstappen to win the race. If that was the case, Hamilton would've had to given his 1st place earlier in the race and stewards not let Hamilton keep the place. Red Bull tried to get that changed on the radio but the stewards stood their ground.

    I didn't watch the 2nd half of the race so can't comment on the safety car incident. My understanding was that this time Red Bull succeeded in getting the original decision by the stewards changed, unlike in the earlier incident I mentioned.

    I tend to agree with getting rid of team directors talking to the stewards during the race. That sorta thing never happened back in the day when I watched F1 regularly as far as I was aware unless it was away from the watching public's ears. It was the first time I heard it and was strange to listen to, them hassling the stewards.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
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  22. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I agree. This would have been a lot fairer, and would have ensured a much more competitive last lap. I think Lewis wins even in this scenario as he would have pulled away initially and Verstappen would have been a lot further back. What happened were the cars in between Lewis and Max were removed, but other back markers were not. This meant Max was alongside, and even momentarily ahead of Lewis behind the safety car. Going ahead behind a safety car is against the rules as well, even if it's fairly minor and no lasting advantage was achieved, it was still a technical infringement. The FIA often delete lap times if a car goes even an inch outside the lines of the circuit, so they do act on technical infringements.

    Anyway, Max ended up being alongside Lewis when the safety car was removed which wiped out Lewis' 11.5 second advantage. On new tyres with the car Max had, it was impossible for Lewis to win from that point. Masi handed Max the race with deliberate manipulation of the rules, to give one competitor a maximum advantage. That cannot be good for the sport.

    What about the other teams who were behind the rest of the back markers further down the line? They had to overtake and may have lost out on points as a result. It's got to be all or nothing on the call for the back markers. You cannot design a hybrid version of the rule in a split moment during a crucial stage of a race.

    I'm not sure if the Court of Arbitration for Sport will overturn the result, but I think a lot of good will come out of it for future seasons. Michael Masi's position is untenable and he has to go with shouts of race fixing ringing in his ears. Other things have to change as well though.

    Under a VSC you have to reduce speed, but you cannot close the gap on drivers you are chasing. But under a safety car you can. This squeezes the pack up all together. So any driver who has risked brilliant overtaking manoeuvres throughout the race to gain a big time advantage sees it wiped out at a stroke if an idiot driver (I'm looking at you Latifi) crashes. That has to change. You should not lose your time advantage. Even if they all bunch up, the race is so time calculated to the 100th of a second, they will know the exact time gaps between all drivers. When they restart, in yesterday's case, Lewis starts first, then 11.5 seconds later Max starts and so on. This would be fair.

    Also, and this is an easy one to enforce. No pit stops under a safety car. You have to stay on the track until racing starts again, then you can pit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  23. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    It's always happened, they've just decided to broadcast it now for our entertainment.
     
  24. Keighley

    Keighley First Team

    Isn't it just that he is dull?

    Bit like the "sport".
     
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  25. The difference is the stewards ruled on the 1st lap incident, the race director cannot then over rule them but must abide and enforce their ruling

    Whereas the safety car is solely in the hands of the race director
     
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  26. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

  27. scummybear

    scummybear Reservist

    A lot of people on here complaining about the general concept of safety cars, it's part of Motorsport not just F1. As much as TVOR denies it, safety cars are factored into team strategy - particularly on circuits like Yas Marina. Many, many boring races have been 'manufactured' into an exciting finish by a safety car, it's just unfortunate this one was the title decider. The bunching up also gives the marshalls a nice long gap to clear the track without interruption.

    That said, it is unprecedented that the RD only let 5 out of 8 cars be released. Equally it'd be stupid to restart with lapped cars at the front. As others have said, a red flag may have been the better choice.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
     
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  28. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    I disagree that the fairest option was to call a red flag. The race director/ stewards should be sticking to the rules they set, not trying to play god/ make it up on the spot/ even out perceived injustices. Calling a red flag for a typical safety car is not a typical decision and could bias the result.

    In terms of order, looking at what should have been done to balance what would have been done in any race vs the importance of this race:
    1. Let all overlapped cars pass, as long as it was safe to do so
    2. If not safe, try and bring the safety car in, and bring out waved blue flags, and mention to teams the importance of the moment so they move out of the way for Max
    3/4. End the race under the safety car/ red flag and allow a staged but fair restart
    5. Let only the cars between Lewis and Max pass and crown Max the winner with a lap to go.
     
  29. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Option 5 wasn’t an option though. It’s not something even should have been considered.

    They may as well have said, the race ends now and Max wins as he’s in second place.
     
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  30. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I agree with most of what you've been posting but it's not for the race director to do the bit in bold either. Standard blue flags would come out and those drivers would have the prescribed amount of time to yield. As it is I think in reality they'd have got out of dodge immediately anyway and certainly been overtaken by Max by the end of the first straight, but that's if they didn't it wasn't for Masi to order them to.

    The easiest outcome was to finish under the safety car, given there was no time for all the lapped cars to get out of the way before the SC passed the safety car line for the final lap.
     
  31. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Exactly this.

    F1 gets a few pelters for ending the season in a lame way and then it’s forgotten about over Xmas. Red Bull argue a little bit but slink off soon enough without a legal leg to stand on and Latifi gets a few choice tweets sent in his direction from Red Bull fans. That’s how it should have gone.
     
  32. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Good points. Appreciate that in any other race they'd have finished under the safety car.

    I was going off what Masi stated, that teams signed up ahead of the race to do everything in their power to avoid finishing under the safety car. If so, I can see why that option is slightly less fair, than all other options, other than Masi making up his own rules for entertainment.

    My main point however stands, that he made the very worst decision with regards to rules, and to fairness. I don't subscribe to the view that Masi was biased towards a team because he favoured them. I just believe he doesn't have enough of a grip over the rules and thinks entertainment should take precedent over all else. Plus he is indecisive and easily persuaded by shouting and emotional arguments (from both sides). As you alluded to earlier, it turned more into WWE than a competitive sport, where the match officials decided to give the world championship to Max because it felt the more entertaining option.

    When neutral drivers are criticising the decision as bizarre, he absolutely has to go.
     
  33. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Yes - and not just the Brits.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59639828

    Norris and Leclerc probably won't be getting a call from Red Bull in the future though!
     
  34. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    The funny thing is, Norris would be perfect for the number 2 role at RB. Splitting the Ferraris and out scoring Ricciardo by almost a third is very impressive.

    I wonder if he’d prefer to replace Lewis in the Merc in two years time…
     
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  35. scummybear

    scummybear Reservist

    I'd imagine there was much more pressure from those with the commercial rights than from Horner. For that reason I doubt he'll be moved on, the people with the money will be very happy.
     
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