F1/ Formula E/ Motorsport Thread

I know it didn’t have much bearing on the result today but it’s quite clear Bottas has checked out of Mercedes and has no intent at all of playing the team game. He didn’t defend at all against Verstappen early on and that was the whole point in him being put back there, essentially to man mark him. Then really throughout the race his pace was pisspoor.

Norris very unlucky. Max very lucky. Thems the breaks. Max’s title to lose now I think.

 

I think Botarse just Isn't that good anymore.
Not easy to keep your motivation when Hamilton (arguably the best driver of the modern era) is your team mate, but he appears to have lost it.

 

Genuinely gutted for Lando today but I think he will learn from it. Hamilton legend, nobody will repeat what he has done.

 

Bottas is possibly the worst teammate Hamilton could ever have hoped for this season. Awful driver, leaves an open door for Verstappen to drive through from the start and then take himself out of the game completely with a pathetic spin. If the bloke isn’t interested in playing the team game he should be dropped completely.

 

Max’s race (and title) to lose you feel now. Never rule Lewis out but dare I say Verstappen is starting to look a class above Hamilton nowadays…

 

Certainly Max has the mechanical advantage today but why didn’t Bottas drive cut him off into the first corner? Intstead he left Max a massive gap and then it was game over by the 2nd corner. In such a tight championship it really becomes a team game and Lewis has dumpy the Finnish dumper bringing up the rear.

 

Fair points UEA but to be honest if Max had ended up 2nd or 3rd after the first lap I still think he would have won. But you’re right about Bottas, he’s like a Massa mk 2. Average driver in a decent car.

 

The Red Bull is the quicker car on most tracks; that's what happens when RB are allowed unrestricted spending to fix the Honda engine over the summer whilst everyone else has to stick within tokens limits, and the aero rules are changed to suit Red Bull high rake over the low rake cars

It's gone back to being a heavily manipulated sport again as it was in the late 90s and I can barely any interest to turn the TV on

 

I'm not that up on F1 tempesta, so can you explain why were RB allowed to do this when other teams were not?

 

Yeah, in the cold light of day I can see Max had the pace to win anyway. Just a little frustrated that Bottas has been playing possum essentially since he found out Merc were ditching him.

 

Have any of you F1 fans been to a Silverstone GP weekend? Looking into getting my daughter some tickets for next years GP and wondered if a general Admission ticket is the best one for someone who's not been before?

 

Are you looking at the whole weekend or just 1 day?

 

Value seems to be the whole weekend.

 

Quote of the weekend from a bitter Hamilton: 'When you've got Checo on your tail, then you know the car is quick' ... Yes Lewis, and when you have Bottas on pole you know the Mercedes is quick too.

And people wonder why he's disliked.

 

Liberty paid circa $8B for F1

That's (obviously) a lot of wonga and Liberty need F1 to be a commercial success (or someone is $8B poorer)

Having the same team win year after year doesn't encourage market growth, whereas having a young up and coming champ from the Netherlands opens new markets

Don't think of F1 as a sport, think of it more how you think of US wrestling

Teams are allowed to be successful and are usually left to be... unless or until the commercial model is under threat

Regarding rake, Red Bull have had a high rake philosophy for many years - the higher the rake the more air volume you put through the diffuser the more downforce you create through pressure differential between what is going through the diffuser and what is going outside the diffuser (think aircraft wing in reverse)

Mercedes have for years followed a low rake concept, the idea being to create more downforce over more of the floor, with low floors 'sealing' the gap between floor and ground better

Red Bull and Mercedes have for years been at opposite ends of the spectrum, with most teams following one of the other approach

For 2021 the FIA (with Liberty pulling the strings) changed the rules to benefit high rake cars. Mercedes had to change to a high rake philosophy, something they had no experience with prior to this year. Thus the sudden dramatic about turn with Red Bull the faster car.

Allow Red Bull to make some engine changes in the name of (ahem) reliability, and you can see how the whole thing is a complete manipulation of the 'sport'. Liberty have done all they can to ensure Max is champion this year.

 

Thanks for that tempesta, very interesting

 

Wonder if Mercedes could pay Williams to get Russell early.

Give him some experience in the car, and boost Mercedes construction chances.

Doubt Williams will change positions either way.

 

Hardly the first time the rules have been changed to even the playing field, it's not a specific 'lets get Max to win' conspiracy. In recent years you've had the FRIC ban, Pirelli's tyre compound change, the double diffuser ban, the blown diffuser ban and the clutch rule changes. And that's just mid-season changes, the list of closed season changes (like your high-rake-benefiting-changes example) is endless. Hell, the switch the hybrid cars is the reason why Mercedes started winning in the first place!

Yes, they try and increase competition (why wouldn't they?). No, it's not some deep-rooted conspiracy.

 

You're right its not the first time, I never said it was. It's been manipulated for as long as I've followed it, which was late 80s.

The switch to hybrid cars wasn't the reason Mercedes started winning, it was the reason RB stopped winning. Before that RB has the best engine (over-run blowing Renault) and engines were frozen, meaning no one could copy them, which locked in a RB advantage.

At the start of the hybrid era Mercedes advantage was for several reasons, but one was because they came up with the split turbo concept, which now everyone copied.

 

F1 needs:

The right rules (reduce aero dependency and increase mechanical grip, cars can follow closely and racing will be close and exciting)
Stable rules (as teams will eventually merge on similar technical solutions which levels things out)
An end to the constant manipulation
To let the teams and the drivers get on with a true meritocracy

 

Hamilton’s not wrong though is he? Perez has typically not proven to be as much of a factor in the title race for his teammate or in helping his team in the constructor’s this season as Bottas has. Perez had only managed 2 podiums up until Turkey, far fewer than Bottas. Even now it’s 5 v 9. The fact Perez was up in 3rd and pushing very hard for 2nd was a sign the Red Bull was going really well in Mexico.

 

It's bloody disrespectful though, surely you can see that? The bloke has just finished 3rd in his home Grand Prix, driving his arse off and gets a stupid comment like that from the self-proclaimed 'good human being'. Instead of being humble he fires off shots, basically saying it was all the car and that Perez shouldn't be up there.

So in your opinion, as Perez hasn't been up there is that a reflection on him being a bad driver or is it that the car isn't actually that good? And secondly, as Bottas has been up there for years is that a reflection on him being a very good driver or is it that the car is actually very good?

 

Lots of drama yesterday.

Hamilton gained half a second or more on Verstappen. Looking at replays, his DRS gap did look a bit big.

But then petty Verstappen goes over and deliberately measures the gap, to highlight the issue to the stewards, touching Hamilton’s wing in the process, which broke parc ferme rules.

The stewards then deemed the gap on Hamilton’s car illegally large, although Bottas’ wing was fine.

The question is, will Hamilton be able to say Verstappen caused the gap by tampering with his car? If so, that’s a pretty large punishment for Max and completely exonerates Lewis.

Or will the stewards rule Hamilton’s car broke the technical rules, which essentially puts him at the back of the grid and hands the title to Max.

I think it is likely that Hamilton broke the regs. But, I don’t see how they can rule an infringement with Hamilton’s car, when there is clear evidence it has been tampered with by his opponent and it was only measured after it was tampered. But this is an F1 desperate to push Max to win the title, so anything is possible.

 

Fair enough, I presumed blaming Liberty directly meant you thought it was a recent trend, as they only took over 4 years ago.

I tend to disagree on a technicality, RBR didn't have the best engine - the Mercedes powered McLaren often had the best speed trap values, I think Force India was also up there. But RBR had the most effective aero/engine combination. The Merc powered teams had better straight line speed, but the Red Bull had better cornering speed (https://www.racefans.net/2011/09/10/2011-italian-grand-prix-prerace-analysis/ for example).

 

We'll see what the stewards decide, they have better footage than we do. That said, if the DRS opening can be adjusted beyond the mechanical limits by a small touch like that then it'd probably fall off at 180mph - I'm sure they're quite robust.

But, the back of the grid isn't a big deal. There's a spint race with 3 points up for grabs, so Lewis can probably make it up to the top 8-10 which is fine for the main race. He'll still finish top 2 on Sunday.

 

My usual approach is I’m always cautious in attributing too much motive to comments made by any high profile sportsperson immediately after an event. Normally they get asked very specific questions which they then duly answer, only to see their answer turned into a ‘Hamilton slams Perez’ type headline. Plus they tend to get asked the same thing several times in consecutive interviews held in quick succession and so sometimes tedium kicks in and they get a bit playful or grumpy.

To answer your questions though - I think Perez has underperformed in the Red Bull this year but has proven to be exactly the right type of non-competitive but experienced team mate Max probably needed at this point in his development. The car is at least the equal of the Mercedes and he’s not consistently been able to show that. I think Bottas has largely put in a par performance in his time at Mercedes but has dropped off this season and been less competitive. I don’t think he’s offered as much to Hamilton this season as Perez has to Max. But then Hamilton’s needs are obviously far different to Max.

 

I only caught up on the DRS stuff this morning but I said to my wife last night that Horner’s comment on Sky that Red Bull ‘knew why (Mercedes) were faster’ but then refusing to explain why was very telling. Max’s pantomime was funny but he mucked up by touching the Merc. Not that I think that’ll affect things. My bet is Hamilton gets DQ’d from qualifying and Max gets a grid penalty for touching the another car in part ferme.

 

Hamilton DQ’d from qualifying so will start at the back of the sprint race. Max fined 50k euros.

Makes sense (seriously, not sarcastically). Congratulations to Max on winning his first title. It’s good to see someone else break through.

 

**** them all says Toto, presumably in a message aimed at the chumps who configured Lewis’ rear wing incorrectly.

 

Whilst I get you on the first point, this isn't selective and out of context. It was in the post-race interview, which I don't usually watch but did this time because it was cool how they were setting up in the stadium section on the track and told my parents to listen to how Hamilton does the usual PR BS, saying they're the best fans in the world etc. But he actually didn't compliment the crowd, but he did manage to get booed by insulting Perez... So I got that one wrong! But it wasn't a leading question, he just wanted to be a stroppy teenager because the fans were so partisan. So in this instance, it's not out of context.

Fair enough, and I'd tend to agree. I think Perez is underperforming in the car and Max is overperforming. As for which car is better, I think it's hard to call - it flips race-to-race. But I'd not say Bottas is a particularly outstanding driver, so the fact both he and Perez are up there is reflective of the car. Which was my original point.

 

The reason the Renault was by far and away the best engine was because cold blowing meant it could keep the diffuser working hard on over run without taking a fuel penalty

It was super quick into a corner, round corner, exiting a corner, and everywhere between